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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | biblicalman | 229152 | ||
Hi Doc, I was not of course speaking of Moses. He is hardly an example of the average Israelite, although I should point out that the Egyptians did not advance in complicated mathematics like the Sumerians and Old Babylonians did. And even their mathematics deteriorated after 1800 BC. Egyptian hieroglyphs were not helpful in enabling advanced calculation. The Egyptian mathematics largely concentrated on practical measurement. But I presume you are not suggesting that Moses set up schools in the wilderness to teach mathematics? They had enough problems finding water. The people were troublesome enough without that. But there is a huge gulf between a relatively few expert Egyptian builders, and certain Sumerian mathematics experts, and a nation like Israel where, before the time of David's court there was ittle need for mathematics. Of course if you have in mind the 'wise men' at David's court no doubt SOME of them could use mathematics reasonably proficiently. But they would be the exceptions. There were very few schools, and little opportunity for the ordinary man to go to school. Nor was counting needed. The shepherd and herdsman knew each of his cattle by name, and trading was carried out using tally sticks and stones in order to indicate quantity. These were tried and trusted methods which had been in use well before numbering began (around 3500 BC). Before that no one could count, however sophisticated. I would not take too much notice of Josephus if I were you. He is reasonably reliable for ths history of his time (although he tended to exaggerate) but he was not reliable for past history. And he was trying to impress the Romans. Furthermore he lived 1900 years after Abraham. It would be like me trying to say what happened in the 2nd century AD without having any records to go by. Meaningless. In fact his statement is ridiculous. What possible use would Abraham have had for advanced mathematics and primitive physics? His interests were trading, herding, and farming. Have you noticed how in recording the statistics of Saul the Bible writer used a non-numerical system? 'Saul was one year old when he began to reign and he reigned two years in Jerusalem'. Now what does that mean? It means that he began to reign in the first stage of his life (below twenty) and continued to reign into the second stage of his life, but died before he reached the third stage (possibly 60). There was clearly no recorder at Saul's court!! Many of the number problems in the Old Testament are best explained by the fact that numbers were used adjectivally. And number words had other meanings. Thus the word for 1000 (eleph) could also mean a clan, or a fairly large military unit, or if repointed a military captain. Thus two eleph could mean two clans, or two military units without any reference to numbers. 40 eleph could mean forty military units, and often did (even if we do incorrectly translate it as 40,000). You really cannot compare the average Israelite with high ranking Babylonian priests, and advanced Egyptian thinkers who had nthing better to do with their time. Of course Israel did eventually develop an intellectual elite. But that is what they were an elite. The nearest comparison we can make with the Israelites are modern tribes untouched by by 'civilisation'. And without exception they have been found to be unable to count beyond twenty. Most could not count beyond three. And yet many were highly intelligent and engaged in shepherding, farming and trading without any need to do so. Before you criticise further I suggest you read some reliable books on the history of mathematics by scholars who have genuinely researched the subject and have no axe to grind. Best wishes |
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2 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | DocTrinsograce | 229159 | ||
Dear Biblicalman, I have always taken Josephus with a grain of salt – as I do with all extra-biblical writers – although, as a Jew, I take them with a kosher grain of salt. :-) I am familiar with the Biblical interpretive approach of Schleiermacher, Feuerbach, Strauss, et al. I find more salt than substance in higher criticism. Consequently, I will keep one Jewish historian employed by the Romans, over all the more contemporary European neo-protestant scholars combined. After all, it is a small thing to believe that Samuel was a prophet of God used by the Holy Spirit to pen a portion of Scripture; whereas the notion that Samuel was literate but unable to count, requires greater credulity than I can muster. Forgive me, but the straining of gnats comes easier than the swallowing of camels – my errant forefathers notwithstanding. In Him, Doc |
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3 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | biblicalman | 229174 | ||
Hi Doc, My statements with respect to counting were not based on the views of higher critical scholars, but on the researches of scholars into the use of numbers without any specific reference to the Bible. They had no axe to gind. As I have pointed out, 'modern' tribes who had not been brought into contact with 'civilisation' were regularly found not to be able to count, usually beyond three or four, although very occasionally up to twenty. It was simply not 'natural'. They not only had no use for numbers but in some cases even resisted the attempt to teach them numeracy. A recent researcher, speaking of Mediaeval England stated 'By this time schools were reduced to little or no arithmetic, it is doubtful whether few knew more than basic counting and finger reckoning.' This the whole of Mediaeval England. And they would not have been seen as 'primitive' (unless you wanted a dagger in your throat:-)) ). Actually many men in ancient days were quite literate and yet unable to count beyond twenty. Numbering was left to the experts. I have at no stage said that no Israelite could count. No doubt Israel also had numerate scribes (as Scripture suggests). But they would be specialists. It is probable that Eliezer, Abraham's steward, was numerate. Indeed Abraham himself may well have been, for he came from Ur of the Chaldees, which was a centre for ancient mathematics, and he was the equivalent of royalty, although whether he went to school in Ur ia another question. As semi-nomads they probably lived on the periphery.(But even the Sumerians were hindered because no one had come up with the concept of a 'zero, nought'. That concept was not invented until the 6th century BC). We certainly know that a king of Egypt after the time of Abraham was unable to calculate. For it was said that when he went into the underworld he was challenged as to his ability in numeracy in order to enter it (thereby proving himself to be royalty) and was baffled, only to be saved because he remembered a verse of poetry which contained numeracy. He was consequently looked on by the Egyptians as 'a great magician', demonstrating the awe in which numeracy was held. It is quite possible that Samuel learned to count beyond 20. But he was hardly the average Israelite. He ruled Israel, and was a scholar besides. However, I cannot see why a man being a prophet of God should necessitate advanced numeracy. Amos was a herdsman. To us numeracy is second nature. We are taught it from our earliest years. The average Israelite had no schooling, was probably not literate (although of course some were to a limited level. But we must remember that the average Israelite before the exile had no reading material), and had no real need for numeracy beyond a limited level. Ancient peoples had managed without it for thousands of years. Of course once money was invented in around 6th century BC numeracy would increase to a limited extent among those who used money. It would at last become more useful. It was, however, the Greeks who turned mathematics into an art, and even a religion (but not of course to the average Greek). Best wishes |
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4 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | DocTrinsograce | 229194 | ||
Dear biblicalman, Sir, everyone has "an axe to grind." Scholars attempt to be regarded as unbiased, but I have yet to meet one for which it was anything more than a polite fiction. As Christians we understand this fruit as arising from man’s fallen nature (Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 15:19). But this all seems very peculiar: literate people who cannot count and professional counters who cannot read or write. Hmmm. The roots of Judeo-Christian faith has to do with the Word of God; i.e., text. Such a foundation makes literacy an essential skill. Certainly literacy fell among those of Israel who were not taken into captivity. But if we are talking about the early descendants of Jacob: How were the early Jews – i.e., those who stood at Sinai and swore to keep them (Exodus 24:3-7) -- to comply with the explicit command of Moses without the ability to read? Those commands included: To read the Shema multiple times a day, as it is written "and [you] shall talk of them [the Law] when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise." (Deuteronomy 6:7b). To learn Torah and to teach it, as it is written "You shall teach them diligently to your children” (Deuteronomy 6:7a). For every man to write a Torah scroll for himself, as it is written "Now therefore write this song and teach it to the people of Israel. Put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the people of Israel." (Deuteronomy 31:19). Even if the logic were sound, I do not think that there is a single Rabbi that would agree with your assessment of the children of Israel. Clearly, Moses did not. I wish I was not traveling, as I would be able to cite ancient and contemporary sources. In Him, Doc |
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5 | How long is a Biblical Generation ? | Gen 15:16 | biblicalman | 229196 | ||
Hi Doc, Well it is true that we all have axe's to grind, you as well as me. And that is why it is important that we consider a wide range of views. LOL I have never suggested that there were people who could use numeracy and not read. Numeracy was a highly skilled art unlikely for those who could not read. Although of course as writing grew out of the original use of numbers in ancient business documents you may have a point in the initial stages. In both the UK and the US today there are people who cannot read and write. And that in spite of intense efforts to make everyone literate. And the standard of numeracy for many is very low (you would probably be surprised to know how low, even after years of schooling). So why should it be surprising that in a land of farmers, who never went to school, and who worked hard from daybreak to nightfall trying to extract a living out of their small plots of land, and their few sheep and goats, and had no books to read or need to send letters, literacy should be at a very low level? It would be surprising if it was otherwise. Of course, there were always those who could read and write to some extent (especially among the relativey wealthy), and there were the comparatively few who were 'scholars', especially among the leading priests, but they were almost certainly in the minority. To you the word of God is written text, but to the ancients it was memorised text. It is true that copies of the Scriptures were available in the Temple, but comparatively few had access to them. And they were not easy to read. And copying was an arduous task, and writing materials very expensive. There would not be many copies outside the Temple, especially before the time of David. The ancients had retentive memories. As the Law was read out to them at the feasts (Deut 31.11-13; etc), it would not be long before they could repeat it word for word, especially as their fathers would have taught them it. And they would then repeat it to their children, as the Scriptures told them to do. Note that Moses was told to write the song and 'put it in their mouths' (not on their tablets). So Moses agreed with me. You may say, 'they were told to write it on their gates and on their doorposts' (Deut 6.9). But they would call in the signwriter to do that. Yes, they would repeat the Shema every day, but they would not read it. Few would have any written material. They knew it by heart. Consider how Muslims today consider knowing the Quran by heart (even though they do not understand it) to be something to be earnestly sought after. I am afraid I do not look on modern Rabbis as authorities on ancient history. Like most they look back from a biased viewpoint. Reading and numeracy is so second nature to us that we find it difficult to conceive of a world where it was limited. But I am even now involved in teaching my granddaughters to count, and it is an arduous business, even with all the numeracy games available. Do you think the poor among the ancients had time to spare for such activity? What use would it be to them? There were far better things to spend their limited time on. Best wishes |
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