Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | But can WE know this? | Hebrews | kalos | 1231 | ||
I get so many questions and comments about things I did NOT say and questions I did NOT ask. I don't recall saying that WE can say that someone else is lost forever? Determing whether another is saved is outside the scope and focus of my remarks about Heb. 6;4. "Harper went a step too far." In what way? How? In what area? All I quoted from the Harper study Bible is: that if salvation were to be lost, it would be impossible for that person to be born again again. Hebrews 6:4,6 (NKJV) "For it is impossible for those who . . . fally away, to renew them again to repentance." As far as I can tell the Harper is only restating, in different words, that which had already been stated in these verses in Hebrews 6. For the life of me I cannot see what fault you find with Harper's note. On the other hand, I can see where the "fall from grace and lose your salvation" people would be stumped when it's pointed out to them that the very passage they use to prove one can fall from grace also shows that getting saved again is impossible. Along with the belief in falling from grace and losing your salvation usually comes the belief that the fallen one can still be saved again. But that cannot happen, according to Heb. 6:4-6. If you say that I am attaching my own meaning to the passage, I honestly don't believe that I am. All I've done is quote it, then repeat it in my own words to emphasize the plain meaning of it. Thank you for a stimulating response, Charis. |
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2 | Still...can WE know this? | Hebrews | charis | 1243 | ||
Dear JVH0212, I very much agree with you that Hebrews 6:4 seems to say that one cannot be 'born again again.' My question was not disputing this at all, nor was I trying to put words in your mouth. The following: "This much is clear: whoever openly and consciously rejects Jesus Christ is unregenerate even if he seemed to have been saved earlier." (note at Heb. 6:4ff, NRSV Harper Study Bible) was also written in your statement, "Once lost, always lost." This is clearly a statement to us, because of the word 'seemed.' God knows, there is no 'seemed' to Him. Unless I misread this quote from Harper's note, it implies that men with limited knowledge, relying on their senses and instincts, which sometimes fail, are to discern when someone is fallen, by observing if the said person 'openly and conciously rejects Jesus.' My question simply asked if WE have this kind of righteousness? Ideally, the church is made of saints of integrity and Holy Spirit revelation to discern such evil people. But to 'proclaim' them as 'unregenerate' and condemn the possibility of salvation in them seems to be out of our area of authority. When we begin to label people in this manner, we usurp God's vantage, and COULD do a great disservice to someone God MAY forgive. There are several examples in the Old Testament that would back this up (David certainly comes to mind), and I cannot imagine that the New Testament expounds a more severe judgement than the Old Testament. To sum up, I believe that your comments regarding Hebrews 6 are true, but we on earth do not have the authority to act upon this judgement. In Christ Jesus. |
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3 | Still...can WE know this? | Hebrews | kalos | 1251 | ||
Thank you for a good, thoughtful answer. But I think somehow there is a failure to communicate on this point. You keep referring to judging someone else as to their salvation or lack of it. I myself do not proclaim as unregenerate any other person. I believe the Scripture is speaking of examing ourselves to be sure whether we are in the faith, and has not one thing to do about judging others. I just don't get that from Heb 6:4 or the Harper Study Bible. Please go back and carefully re-read previous submissions. Neither Heb 6:4 nor the Harper Study Bible nor I have said ONE WORD about judging or appraising another's salvation. The subject just doesn't come up. Not until you bring it up. That's really the only major problem I have with your reply. It is a matter of personal concern whether we ourselves are saved. And as far as what you said, I AGREE with you: we have no license to determine whether other people are saved. Again, the Scriptures, the reference Bible and my comments never even dealt with that issue. No sarcasm intended, but if you think Heb 6:4 and following are teaching something you don't agree with, then you would need to take that up with the Author and point out His errors in that passage. I only comment on what it SAYS. Thanks for your time and your input. In Christ, JVH0212 |
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4 | Still...can WE know this? | Hebrews | charis | 1256 | ||
Dear friend, I stand corrected. You and Harper's both seem to be talking about the theory or theology of the knowledge of God, and I talked about the practical application of this knowledge or lack of it. I do understand that this is a forum for theologians and scholars, but I was writing about and to those who are laymen. Though I am a minister in a local church, I consider myself a layman. Again, I fall into the trap of applying my bent to another's. As an excuse, I can only say that my motive was to speak to all those reading these discussions, not just to you. Please forgive my lack of clarity. I did re-read the submissions, starting with "Could a believer lose their salvation?" then to "Once lost, always lost." Isn't "...is unregenerate..." kind of a statement that 'appraises salvation?' I was under the impression that you were using Hebrews 6:4-6 to express your views concerning "Once lost, always lost." If I am totally 'off the mark' in this, please forgive me. Your protagonist, not antagonist friend, in Jesus. | ||||||
5 | Still...can WE know this? | Hebrews | kalos | 1263 | ||
Dear Friend, I do not consider you an antagonist or adversary of any kind. And thank you for reminding me of that of which I continually need reminding: that in your ministry your concern is not with pure abstract theology, but with explaining and applying it in the daily life of others. You made a point in your letter that I just wasnt considering -- the practical application of all that you read and study. Sometimes I think if we were discussing these matters face to face, without the limitations of time and distance, we would more readily comprehend each other's points. And, speaking for myself, there would be less misunderstanding of the points you make. I thoroughly enjoy your input and go looking for it every day. Thanks for your friendship and your regular submissions to this site. |
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6 | Still...can WE know this? | Hebrews | charis | 1265 | ||
My friend, my wife has been telling me for years that I sometimes (often :-) don't get my point across very well. Perhaps this forum can help me with this 'character flaw?' It indeed is a great way for me to use my mother tongue for discussion at this level. Likewise, I treasure our friendship and discussion, and looking up your submissions is always interesting. In Christ. | ||||||