Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | "Who am I?" How important is it? | 1 Chr 17:16 | Ray | 12270 | ||
Brain teaser 2; "Who am I" prayer of David. 1 Chronicles 17:16 and 2 Samuel 7:18 record the "Who am I" prayer of David. With one small change this prayer can be shown to be a prayer to a Triune God; in the sense that the pronouns total are divisible by three. How important would that be to you or any person considering the Deity of Christ? The change that would have to be made to make the pronouns divisible by three would be to interpret 1 Chronicles 17:20 "neither is there any god besides Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears." In order to get this result, and for ease in counting capitalized pronouns, go to your NASB. My question is, "How important is it to you?" |
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2 | "Who am I?" How important is it? | 1 Chr 17:16 | Makarios | 12384 | ||
Dear Ray, The Hebrew word used here in 1 Chr 17:20 is 'elohiym', which is the same word that is used in reference to God in 2 Samuel 7:22 and Genesis 1:1.. In all three places in Scripture, the word "God" is capitalized. Also, all three translations that we use to study capitalization capitalize "God" here, thus giving weight to the conclusion that the word should indeed be capitalized. "But why?" I can see where you would side with "any god" rather than "any God", but the Hebrew word used is 'elohiym' here. So it could be stated, "neither is there any 'elohiym' besides Thee, according to all that we have heard.." In other words, there is nothing else in all of existence that is like God! There is truly nothing like God- there is not anything that contains His properties or nature except Him! So in this sense, we can truly say, "neither is there any God besides Thee"! However, if you assert that it must be this way: "neither is there any god besides Thee", then you are calling our Lord a 'god', since the prepositional phrase 'besides Thee' is directly describing 'god', which is clearly referring to the Almighty (elohiym)! However, I am sure that you didn't mean to do this, and I know that you would always call our Lord "the God" instead of a 'god'. I believe that this is the underlining importance of the use of capitalization in this verse. Blessings, Nolan |
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3 | "Who am I?" How important is it? | 1 Chr 17:16 | Ray | 12533 | ||
Dear people, Please realize that I am not recommending any word changes here in this thread. What I hoped to do and have accomplished I believe is for all of you to recognize the importance of knowing the difference between a god and the God whom we serve. I appreciate all of your listening to me these months and putting up with my "obsession". Please be assured that I am not expressing anything against the Greek or Hebrew texts but am only interpreting the words through capitalization. In this regard I would like Nolan or anyone knowledgeable in the Hebrew to compare this 1 Samuel passage with its "elohiym" and Deuteronomy 5:7 "You shall have no other gods before Me." My NASB Study Bible has a note that "before" could be "besides". Thanks for your interest and continued study. |
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4 | "Who am I?" How important is it? | 1 Chr 17:16 | Morant61 | 12536 | ||
Greetings Ray! My Hebrew is very rusty, but Deut. 5:7's "before" is the translation of two words. Literally it says something like, "No there will be to you gods other before face" I'm not sure on this very rough translation. However, the words in question can mean either 'before' or 'beside' in our usage. The literal ideal is "in my face" or "in my presence." I hope this helps! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | "Who am I?" How important is it? | 1 Chr 17:16 | Ray | 12545 | ||
Hi Tim, Thanks for your input. Can you also compare Deut 5:7 with 1Chronicles 17:20 to determine any reason why the Hebrew would require any capital "G". Right now we have both lower and upper cases translated and I am asking what Hebrew differences are present. Thanks again. Later, Ray |
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6 | "Who am I?" How important is it? | 1 Chr 17:16 | Makarios | 12588 | ||
Dear Ray, The word for 'gods' in Deut. 5:7 is also 'elohiym', like that of Gen. 1:1 and 2 Sam. 7:22.. I believe that the reason that 'elohiym' is rendered as 'gods' in one place and "God" in another is explained by the words preceding the word 'elohiym.' In this case, we have 'no other'.. (Deut. 5:7) Here is the explanation in Strong's Concordance behind the Hebrew word for 'other'... "312 'acher akh-air' from 309; properly, hinder; generally, next, other, etc.:--(an-)other man, following, next, strange." With this word preceding the word that could be rendered as "God" (even though it does not use His personal name), one could gain a little more understanding as far as why the word 'gods' is not capitalized. If you remember, the word 'elohiym' itself can be rendered as a plural word. In this sense, this verse is taking 'elohiym's "literal" meaning instead of the one used by Moses in Gen 1:1.. One must remember that the Hebrew language is not nearly as flexible or descriptive as that of English (or anywhere near the comparison of Greek flexibility). So one could see how the same word 'elohiym' could be rendered as 'gods' in one verse, "God" in another, and as 'angels' in a third verse.. An example of a word in the English language that has so many different meanings like this is the word "love".. The Greek uses three different words to describe the different aspects of what we call "love".. The Hebrew OT provides three different 'titles' or names for God that it uses.. "Adonai" which means "Lord", "YHWH" which is God's 'proper name', and 'elohiym' which is also used throughout the OT (the most used of the three) to designate or refer to God.. So the Hebrew does try to 'make up' for this generalization of the word 'elohiym' by giving us three different words in which God can be referred to or called, but it still must be translated within the context and using the other words around 'elohiym' for support (such as the ones preceding), since every single letter in Hebrew is capitalized.. I would copy some Hebrew and put it here if the Study Bible Forum's font would allow it.. I hope you have found this interesting Ray! --Nolan |
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7 | "Who am I?" How important is it? | 1 Chr 17:16 | Ray | 12675 | ||
Hi Nolan, You must know that getting to know God and what the Scriptures say about Him will always get and have my interest. Again, I appreciate your encouragement. I'd like to share with you what I found and what I would suggest for consistency in our translators concerning "besides Thee". The words are found eight times. 1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no one holy like the Lord, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God." Notice, "no one holy like, no one besides, and, "Nor is there any rock like..." 2 Samuel 7:22 "...for there is none like You and there is no God besides You." Notice here that even with the "none like You" it doesn't read "there is no god besides You" that I have been suggesting. 1 Chron 17:20 "O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You..." Notice again that because it reads "none like You" I would suggest it reading "nor is there any god besides You". 2 Chron 14:11 "...Lord, there is no one besides You to help in the battle between the powerful and those who have no strength." I am a believer in consistency and this agrees with 1 Samuel 2:2, "no one besides Thee". Psalms 16:2 "I said to the Lord, "You are my Lord; I have no good besides You." There is only One who is good. The fool says in his heart that "There is no God." Psalm 14:1 Isaiah 26:13 O Lord our God, other masters besides You have ruled us; but through You alone we confess Your name." Isaiah 64:4 "For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear, Nor has the eye seen a God besides You, Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him." Here in this verse we can see with our eye rather hear with our ears, the capitalization of a God. The God who acts and the One who is able... There are 12 "besides Me" in the Scriptures and I'd like to look with you on those also, but not tonight. I would say though that for consistency I would interpret Isa 45:21 "there is no other god besides Me..." and Hosea 13:4 "you were to know no other god except Me, For there is no Savior besides Me. I cared for you in the wilderness..." So what I am saying is; to be consistent all these six "no one, no god, any god, no one, no good, other masters" should all be lower case. And with the eye we can not see any God except Him. Deut. 4:35 says He is God and Mark 12:32 says "He is One, and there is no one else besides Him." The eighth "besides You" is found in Psalm 73. "With Your counsel You will guide me, And afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but You? And besides You, I desire nothing on earth." Psalm 73:24 |
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8 | "Who am I?" How important is it? | 1 Chr 17:16 | Makarios | 12846 | ||
Dear Ray, I apologize for not getting back with you sooner, but as always, I've been busy on the Forum. Time to sit down and enjoy a nice chat with Ray! :) That was an excellent and thoughtful study!! I have indeed looked up the passages that you have cited and paid special attention to the word "besides".. As I was looking through them, being guided by your study above, I was wondering to myself, "Have you found any places in Scripture in which the following word after the article(usually God, One or You) is not capitalized?" If we could find such an occurrence, then maybe that would help us to better explain why the translators chose to capitalize where they did following such articles as "besides You".. I will look diligently and I will let you know if I come up with anything as I do an extensive, extended search throughout the translations that we have chosen to use.. Keep up the excellent studies, my friend! :) Your Brother in Christ, Nolan |
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