Results 1 - 20 of 89
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: Ancient Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127423 | ||
EdB, In this post as well you have completely disregarded my attempts to be civil with you. You rejected everything with opinion, insulted me as usual, disregarded scripture, degraded the meaning of scripture, and you called the doctrine of Christ Humanism. Well get thee behind me Satan! You speak NOT the things that are of God. Good day to you. If you reply to me anymore with these nasty retorts, I will report you to abuse for harrassing me. Ancient |
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2 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127416 | ||
EdB, It is clear that you have not looked up any of the passages for context. You have not given my words any real weight. You are wrong! You are being argumentative and prideful. What you want is to win this debate at all costs, and I will no longer cast my pearls before swine. You are disregarding plain scripture. You have been taken in your own craftiness, and the Lord rebuke you. Good day to you. This conversation is at an end. Ancient |
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3 | The Doctrines Please? | Bible general Archive 2 | Ancient | 127415 | ||
EdB, I did not ask why the topic was restricted. I asked for a list of the doctrines represented by this site. Your opinions are for another time and another discussion. Please do not expound on the topic in question, as I want answers, and I do not want this thread restricted as well. If you know the doctrines, please list them as I requested. "Anything, as long as I'm in fact seeking truth," has led to my question. If you do not know the doctrines, then please allow someone else to list them. Thank you for your response. Ancient |
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4 | The Doctrines Please? | Not Specified | Ancient | 127408 | ||
Dear forum members, Post #127351 has been restricted after only a few posts. I was clear that I didn't have much interest in the particular topic, but I thought I made a valid point that searching the topic to conclusion was a good and edifying thing. Someone has disagreed and restricted the thread. This is disturbing, but beyond my say so. Because of this action, it is abundantly clear to me that this forum is not about discussing the Bible and determining truths in humility to the Word, but about discussing topics according to a predetermined doctrine. I have read books both for and against every major doctrine in the church today, and I find that both sides offer substantial evidence for their points of view. One particular doctrine is not necessarily correct, and the point of study and discussion is to determine the truth of scripture. Now, knowing that this is a doctrine forum by practical evidence and vehement objections to scholarly, educated, and accredited points of view based on scripture, I need not offer any scripturally based advice, except what conforms to the said doctrine. I have my own points of view based on diligent study, but I can be silent on some issues as required to avoid dissension. I need to know what the doctrines are on this site so I can properly conform my answers so as not to make myself a stumbling block to others. This is not a gripe or a post in anger. I am not trying to bait or tempt anyone. This is something I need to know, because it is a waste of time to put my knowledge into a post that no one will see. Please list the doctrines by their common titles, indicating a for or against position on each. Your assistance in this matter would be of great help. Ancient |
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5 | The Doctrines Please? | Bible general Archive 2 | Ancient | 127413 | ||
Dear forum members, Post #127351 has been restricted after only a few posts. I was clear that I didn't have much interest in the particular topic, but I thought I made a valid point that searching the topic to conclusion was a good and edifying thing. Someone has disagreed and restricted the thread. This is disturbing, but beyond my say so. Because of this action, it is abundantly clear to me that this forum is not about discussing the Bible and determining truths in humility to the Word, but about discussing topics according to a predetermined doctrine. I have read books both for and against every major doctrine in the church today, and I find that both sides offer substantial evidence for their points of view. One particular doctrine is not necessarily correct, and the point of study and discussion is to determine the truth of scripture. Now, knowing that this is a doctrine forum by practical evidence and vehement objections to scholarly, educated, and accredited points of view based on scripture, I need not offer any scripturally based advice, except what conforms to the said doctrine. I have my own points of view based on diligent study, but I can be silent on some issues as required to avoid dissension. I need to know what the doctrines are on this site so I can properly conform my answers so as not to make myself a stumbling block to others. This is not a gripe or a post in anger. I am not trying to bait or tempt anyone. This is something I need to know, because it is a waste of time to put my knowledge into a post that no one will see. Please list the doctrines by their common titles, indicating a for or against position on each. Your assistance in this matter would be of great help. Ancient |
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6 | Philippians 2:12 - Fear and trembling | Heb 10:25 | Ancient | 127404 | ||
Brother/Sister, My opinion on what is clearly being presented by you as a predestination argument is that God called everyone. Whoever believes on Jesus will not perish but have everlasting life. I choose not to argue this topic. Let me just say that if predestination is a factual case in scripture, then it is up to us to bring the truth to everyone, lest they miss their predestined calling. Since we don't know who is predestined and who is not, we must assume that everyone we meet is of the predestined persuasion, and we would be remiss in our duties to God to not do his stated will to preach the Gospel in all the world and make disciples of all men. Love to you, Ancient |
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7 | Why is the thread associated with ID# .. | 2 Pet 2:4 | Ancient | 127390 | ||
Country Girl, My first reaction when I saw this post was that the scriptures specifically state that God created evil. Upon looking at the thread, I find that Stultis also determined this and asked that someone answer to it. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. It's a ying yang. Boy girl, on off, back forward, light darkness, good evil. Now, your example is good, and I would be inclined to agree, but demonstration is secondary to plain statement. He says he did it, and that's the conclusion, regardless of any secondary reasoning. To say, "It is a basic self-evident contradiction of His Word to think that God could have created evil and is thus banned as soon as the Foundation know of its existance," is not correct. It is not a self-evident contradiction. It is the Word of God. If they "are dedicated to God's Word and Its rightful claim to being the absolute Truth," then the Word of God must be acknowledged first and foremost over doctrine. I am not personally interested in this topic, so don't misunderstand me to argue towards any goal specifically related to it. My interst is in preserving sound study based on the Bible and the words it contains as opposed to doctrines and opinions. When people stop acknowledging the authority of the stated Word in favor of their prideful opinions and doctrines, they stop learning. This topic, as opposed to being banned, should have been answered to. If refutable, it should have been soundly refuted. If not refutable, then it should have been acknowledged so that all could be edified. Where is our humility? I speak not only to everyone on the forum, but to myself as well, who recently allowed someone to provoke me to the extent that I was harsh to someone I respected on this forum. Where is our love! We should be esteeming everyone as greater than ourselves. Why is this not happening? Love is not vaunted in pride, so why is the pride so thick as to be cut with a knife? Out of hundreds of posts over the last week, I've seen the words, "you're right," once. Can you folks tell me that everyone is right, and they arguing for no good reason at all? I have personally posted to two topics with sound scripture, and I have met with indoctrination and opinions. I have met with pride, anger, insults, name-calling, disregard for plain scripture, and just plain downright rudeness. What are we doing to each other? I say, answer Stultis' question. If you people that argue him have the right of it, then let's see it, because dismissing the question stinks of pride and stubborness. People deserve to know what the Bible says on the matter. Hiding it is not edifying anyone. If he is right, then restricting it is perpetuating misconceptions instead of finding out how to understand what is written. If he is wrong, then everyone needs to see why, so they can be edified and strengthened in their own discussions on the same topic. This is my voice on the matter, and I will otherwise silence myself in regard to this topic until/unless someone chooses to ridicule, criticize, or call me names over it. I'm getting quite used to that, and it's only been a week. Ancient |
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8 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127384 | ||
EdB, (Continued ...) To summarize the quoted passagese, according to love, I conclude the following results as according to plain scripture: If you love God and love your neighbor, you will live. There are no commandments greater than these, and all other laws are dependent upon the two for their very existence. Love is the commandment of Christ, and if you do that, everyone will know that we are his diciples. Love edifies, and all that we do should be done in love. In Christ, nothing means anything, except that it be by faith through love. Love is the fulfillment of the law; there is no commandment we have that is not summed up by it, and love does no harm to another. The things that define love are the fruits of the spirit, and there are no laws against such things. Through faith, and rooted and grounded in love, we can comprehend all things. Love is the perfect bond of unity, and it is the goal of the Apostles' instruction. If you are loving each other, you are fulfilling the royal law, and you do well. Love is the message we have heard from the beginning, and love covers a multitude of sins. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love one another, and it is by this sincere love that we will assure our hearts before God. If we love, we are born of God, know God ... we abide in God and God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. This same love that nailed his own Son to the cross. If love does all these things, as according to plain scripture, then love is all you need. The root point of the "go to church" issue, and the reason for some of my questions stems from this truth. We all agree that going to church is a good thing, but if you miss church two weeks in a row, you have not sinned. You have missed church. In no way have you failed to love another by missing the assembly at the church house. If, on the other hand, you make it a commandment, then you have sinned if you miss it once, and this without harming anyone or failing to love your brothers and sisters even by accident. It is for this reason that church is not a command. It is a good thing to do. If it is a command, you are a murderer if you miss it once. Observe the words of James: James 2:10-11 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one, he has become guilty of all. For He who said, "Don not commit adultery," also said, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. In other words, if you make it a command, and you miss it once, you are also a murder. Now observe the words of John: 1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. In short, if it is a command, then you are a murderer if you miss church once, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. If, on the other hand, it is exhortation, if you miss you are still loving those around you, but simply missed service. Love IS the law in all respects, and it never fails. 1 John 2:10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. Ancient |
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9 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127383 | ||
EdB, (Continued ...) 1 Corinthians 16:4 Let all that you do be done in love. Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (Compare these "fruits" to the description of love in 1 Corinthians 13 4-7) Ephesians 3:16-18 ... that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth ... Colossians 3:14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 1 timothy 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. James 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well. 1 Peter 4:8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 1 John 3:11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another ... 1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 1 John 3:18-20 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. 1 John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 2 John 1:5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. Continued ... |
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10 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127382 | ||
EdB, I promised in another post that I would address the love topic, and simultaneously I will address the following: "First and foremost I never said it was ridiculous to suggest that love meets all of God's criteria." Allow me to paste precisely what you said: "Ancient is saying not so, if we have love we have met all of god's criteria. I'm trying to show him and others how utterly ridiculous that is." You said it, now own it. We will otherwise drop the issue because it's not worth dwelling on. Now, on to love. Allow me, please to demonstrate to you with scripture just what love accomplishes ... and not love as in the emotion, but love as in the action. Matthew 22:36-40 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law? And He said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Mark 12:30-31 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these. Luke 10:26-28 And He said to him, What is written in the Law? How does it read to you? And he answered, YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE. John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. John 15:12 This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. John 15:17 This I command you, that you love one another. Romans 13:8-10 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. Continued ... |
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11 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127381 | ||
Good evening Ed, I have taken the time to go back over your posts and reconsider what you have had to say. I have decided that your comments, however insulting time and again, are done in sincerity, not out of a desire to hurt. It is a common factor of your writing, so it is simply part of who you are, and I will try to temper myself and be understanding. I have considered my "insults" to the church as you like to view them. I have concluded that you are not understanding my comments, so to briefly restate the point: It is not the church (actual, active, truly righteous and believing body of Christ), but the teachings of the times considered "orthodox." They believed they were doing the right thing when they did what they did. My gripe is not against the church, but against false doctrines, recognized by the authority of the established church of the time periods to be "orthodox," that lead people to do such horrible things. I have come to the conclusion that you do not understand what love is. You recognize love as an emotion, and from this perspective, I understand why you cannot wrap your mind around this idea. Love, by the context of the Bible, is a behavior you exhibit, not just the emotion that motivates the behavior. Agape is the emotion. Agapao is the action that causes Agape to be exhibited, and it is recognized as a verb and action, not a feeling. I have concluded that you didn't really read my first long post expounding on love and the law. If you read it, you did not give it reasonable consideration. Since the time I presumed you read it, you have made comments blatantly contrary to scripture. I do not understand why. I honestly believed plain scripture would be enough to bring the conversation back into perspective, but I am at a loss since you choose not to acknowledge plainly written statements by Jesus, James, John, Paul, and Peter. This is not stated in sarcasm or insult. I'm truly at a loss as to what to say, because if I can't argue scripture and see progress, then I'm without debate. You have agreed that Hewbrews is not a command. I took the liberty of copying and pasting what you previously wrote for demonstration: "it was I that conceded the fact that you were right going to church as stated in Hebrews 10:25 was not a commandment as such but rather an admonishment made for our good." Because it is not a commandment, but exhortation, and because no other such commandments exist, I will conclude from our discussions the very same point I made in my first post. Going to church is not a commandment, but a thing we should do. Throughout this series of posts, people have lost sight of what my original statement was. Allow me to paste it here for you: "We are not commanded to go to church. Let every man be fully pursuaded in his own mind. The one that does not esteem one day above another, God will make him stand, and we should not judge another's servant, for no man should be your judge regarding Sabbaths, or other related holy days. Those that choose to go to church, you do a fine thing. Those that choose not to go to church, it would be better if you did, but it is not required. If you are weak, you could use the instruction. If you are strong, you could instruct others. So either way it is a good thing, and we don't want to forsake the assembling of ourselves because it is our opportunity to provoke one another to love." [Romans 14:1-10; Colossians 2:16] Again, having reread all the posts, I conclude that not only has this statement not been refuted, but it has been frequently unheld in anger by those that would criticize me, and this includes you. In the attempts to refute what I wasn't ever trying to say, my original statement has been inadvertently verified and conceded to by virtually everyone involved in this post. They, including you, have all stated plainly that scripture does not directly command it. They also, including you, have all stated plainly that they think it is something we should do. This is the heart of what my post was. It was an exhortation to go to church, and to go for the right reasons. Again, people have lost sight of what my original post was. As for love and its relationship to the law; you are not understanding just how powerful love is, what the ramifications of love are, and just how thoroughly love accomplishes all tasks related to God. All in all, our discussion on going to church has been resolved. Neither you or anyone else has refuted me, and all have conceded to my points, expressing similar ones simultaneously without realizing what my original point was. I will address the love issue in a different post, but I think we have reached our conclusion on the "go to church" conversation, unless you have something else to add that supports or defies the stated, supported, conceded statement from the beginning. Ancient |
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12 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127358 | ||
Hey Country Girl, Let me demonstrate to you what this line of thinking has led to, and what those off the forum following my example have come to be. There are two young men, late twenties, early thirties. Their names are Darin and Richard. Darin spent his life in the church, and he never got answers to questions he asked. He was constantly challenged and ridiculed because he saw things in the scriptures that contradicted the teachings. He was not going to church anymore because they either couldn't or wouldn't answer, and he had despaired. Richard had converted a year ago, and was on the verge of turning back to Atheism because the people in the church had beat down his self esteem. He, too, got no answers, no real support ... nothing. It was a sham. The people were as fake as puppets. On my route, witnessing to anyone and everyone that will listen to me, as is my habit, I ministered to them "outside of the church walls." Both, after hearing the doctrine of love and seeing the credibility of it in scripture, started coming to my home for a Bible study. Neither of them goes to church still, though they want to if they can find a good church. And without going to church, they both, with the doctrine of love, treat people with respect, humility, kindness, patience, etc. They have both become people of good reputation because of where I led them. They have witnessed to many people, and have been able to answer questions. They have both advanced so far ahead of the average "New" Christian, you would never know that this study had only been going on for three months. There is another Bible study at the Toyota dealership nearby. I attended that one for a while. The people attending there are still sucking the teat while those I've discipled are tearing up steak. Richard, the weaker and least knowledgable of the two in the beginning, actually impressed me not long ago by showing me something I hadn't considered. The student taught the teacher, and that is the first sign of Christian maturity. Darin, about the same time, instead of bringing to me his question about an often difficult passage to interpret for most people, came to me with the answer to it, because of the doctrine of love, and presented to me the answer I would have presented to him. All because the foundational doctrine is solid and correct. At this point, I feel confident that either of them could take on a debate and win, because they are both well versed and trained in humility to accept and acknowledge if they are wrong. They both, without guidance from me except by example, have purchased interlinears, history books, concordances, bibles, software, etc. in order to do deeper studies on their own. I am proud of both of them, and neither of them did any of it inside the walls of a church building. They did it in an assembly of four or five, and are fully equipped and edified unto all good works. This is an actual happening. Church, while a good thing, is not the answer. It is AN answer. Other options work as well, and I have the living proof. What they did NOT get inside the church walls, they instead got from without. Ancient |
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13 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127356 | ||
Country Girl, If it is a command, show it to me. If it is not written, but in fact just what you believe is "the right thing to do," then concede that it is not a command, but simply "a good thing to do." There is nothing you just said that cannot be done outside the walls of the church, and to be frank, church is the last place I'd want to be for encouragement. It is not a place to talk. It is not a place to fellowship. It is a place where you sing hymns for 30 minutes, pray 20 more, listen to a man preach to you (and often incorrectly depending on the church), then you get to give money to further a million dollar building, the pastor's Mercedes, thousand dollar suits, and to hear him beg money from those in the congregation much less fortunate than himself. All these things I have seen with my own eyes. I have watched pastors preach messages they wanted to preach, deliberately leaving out pertinent passages (like preaching on it being okay to speak in tongues in church, but leaving out the part that says not to do it in church except by two or three, and let one interpret. Otherwise keep silent). I have watched more than one church beg for money and drive home in 80k vehicles, while I! was given coupons when I was starving and homeless on Christmas at 18 years old! Most recently, a friend of mine got a letter from a church because he hadn't been attending. It was the most slanderous, judgmental, presumptuous, condemning letter I have ever seen in my life, let alone from those proclaiming Christianity. There is no church I have ever been in that hears the opinions of those "beneath" the pastor. It is an orthodox system of heirarchy that places some above others, and is more often than not rife with the hypocrisy of respecting persons. They teach laws in church, but never love. Love is the GREATEST commandment, not the least. Agape type love, which is the outward, affectionate display of Agapao, the active action, is something you either have, or do not have. [1st John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love (Agapao, actively perform the duties resulting in Agape) the brethren. He who does NOT love (Agapao, actively perform the duties resulting in Agape) abides in death.] Now, have you passed from death into life? Or do you abide in death? Agape is not something to strive for. We were given of God's spirit in order that we may know and exercise said love, and if a person does not do so, they do not know God. They abide in death. You either Agapao, or you do NOT Agapao. I DON'T need the walls of a church between 11:00 AM and 12:00 noon in order to accomplish this, OR the things you listed in your post. If this be the case, then WOE TO US Monday through Saturday. You are wrong. However a good thing it is to go to church, there is nothing done within the walls that I cannot do outside the walls, including assemble with other believers. Show me the commandment, in plain speech, backed up with at least one witness to establish the matter, and I will say you are right and continue going to church as I have been. If you cannot show such a commandment in plain speech with all the necessary parameters to know how to fulfill the command according to your standards, then acknowledge that it is not a commandment, but is, in truth, the thing YOU think is the right thing to do. Further, in the case of the second, acknowledge that what is right for you may not be right for someone else. My conscience is not judged by you, and you should not be judging people in regard to holy days or Sabbaths [Col 2:16]. This is not to say that you have, only that you should not. Lastly, acknowledge that I can do the things listed outside the church walls. I can, I have, and I actively do. Acknowledge that this thing can be done. Now, I'm sorry that I'm harsh. It is bad of me, and I acknowledge this thing. You are truly the last person in here that I want to be harsh with. I've been being attacked over this subject since this time yesterday. When it all started, if you go back to my first post and follow it, you will see that I told EdB that I did not want to discuss this. I just wanted to add some food for thought. Since then, I have been hounded and harrassed, and I finally gave in and discussed the issue. I have my opinion, which is sound according to the doctrine of love, which IS the doctrine we are to abide by. I have defended it actively in this thread for a total of sixteen hours. No one hears a word I say. I am constantly rejected without any concession for absolute value of scripture. I have been called names. I have been ridiculed. I have been insulted. All these things have added up to a rather sour disposition that is nothing of the man I usually am. I'm angry at being treated so disrespectfully, and I resent it. Again, I'm sorry that I'm harsh with you. I'm not a happy camper right now with all the flak I'm getting over a simple post. Ancient |
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14 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127344 | ||
Country Girl, There is no position to choose between. It is either commanded, or it is not commanded. Everyone participating in this post has, at one time or another, stated clearly that the scriptures do not directly command us to go to church. If it is not written, then it is not commanded. It is a doctrine of men. My point from the beginning has never been that we should not go to church. I have advocated several times that I am in favor of it, and I think it is a good thing. My position is: Go to church, but go because you want to go, not because someone has determined it as a command when no such written command exists. EdB's position is: Go to church because it is commanded even though it isn't written, but it doesn't matter if we keep the commandments or not anyway because it won't affect our salvation. Which said doctrine is a license to sin. Further, he slanders the doctrine of love, when the scriptures clearly, openly, and specifically say that love is the point. This thing I have demonstrated, though it was rejected, and can demonstrate time and again. I disagree with your analysis that God will deny people paradise because they didn't attend church. I'm sorry, but if they are keeping the commandments of Christ, which never included "go to church," then that's nonsense. Ancient |
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15 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127339 | ||
I keep a holy day. I choose to attend church on Sundays because everyone else attends on Sunday. However, I also keep every other day as holy, and fellowship whenever I can. Now, I don't know that I understand your question, "Do you choose the day or obey God." It sounds like you are saying to me that God has given us a commanded Holy Day, and you want to know if I'm going to obey God in keeping that specific commanded Holy Day, or if I'm going to just choose some other day as I decide in defiance to God's commanded Holy Day. If that is your question, God did not give us a specific day to worship, and your question is baiting. Ancient |
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16 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127338 | ||
EdB, Believe in Jesus Christ, that God raised him from the dead, and love one another as He gave us commandment. This is the doctrine of Christ. You say that it is ridiculous to suggest that love meets all of God's criteria. You are wrong, and to call the doctrine of Christ humanism is the true heresy. Again, you are wrong, and I can prove it all day and night. This last statement you are making: "If you read his comments and dwell on the points he is making you will see it is not othrodox Christianity but rather humanism," demonstrates my problem with orthodox Christianity. The message Jesus came to teach is love, and no other. Where orthodox Christianty disagrees with that, orthodoxy is defying scripture, and it is wrong. And that is that. Ancient |
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17 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127326 | ||
Steve, I've been spending time debating with EdB. I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you. I have to hit the sack. It's 3:10 am, and I would hate to miss church, being commanded and all ... (just a bit of sour humor after a 14 hour debate) I will try to repond to this post properly when I am more rested. Ancient |
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18 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127323 | ||
EdB, (Continued from previous two posts) 10 Statement: Again where does it say love fulfills the law? We are not under the law by grace which merely means the law and our keeping of it or not will not effect our salvation. However the law is still in place and still should be our standard for living. Answer: I already showed the passages pertaining to love fulfilling the law, so we are straight on that issue for this point, yes? Now, I want to say up front that I do not want to start a debate in the middle of this one over a "once saved always saved" doctrine, but I sincerely urge you to read a little more fervently, because you are in for a big shock on Judgment Day if you think you can not keep God's law and get away with it. Not being under the law means that we are not subject to written commandments, but we are still subject to the intent, which is love. And John states quite plainly that a man that does not love abides in death, is a murderer, does not know God, is not born of God, is of the devil, and is in darkness even now. See 1st John. To conclude these posts: You say, "Your point is the only law is to love and if we do that everything else is okay." Yes, that is exactly my point. Love is the only law, and if we do that everything is okay. [1st John 2:10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.] [1st John 3:18-20 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.] [1st John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.] Ancient |
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19 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127322 | ||
EdB (Continued from previous post) 6) Statement: Again love is the motivator not the conclusion. I can love the pieces out of something but still do it harm. How many mercy killings are proof of this. Your taking love an emotion a motivator and trying to make it the end all. It isn’t it is what we do with and how we show that love that matters. Answer: Love is the motivator AND the conclusion. You are mistaken. [1 Timothy 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.] You say you can love the pieces out of something and still do it harm. This is false. [Romans 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.] As for the mercy killings, we weren't talking about that, so let's save that for another day because it's not really relevent. Love is not just an emotion and motivator. It IS the be all end all, and what you show is the fruit you bear by which all men will know that we are his disciples. [John 13:35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.] 7) Statement: Love is not the fullfillment but rather a motivator of keeping the law. Jesus said the law hangs on these not that they are fulfilled by love. It takes action and obedience to fulfill the law. Answer: When you say quite assertively that love is not the fulfillment of the law, you are mistaken. [Romans 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.] And then, [Romans 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.] And then, [Galatians 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."] And then, [James 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.] The action and obedience is to do those things according to a spirit of love, not according to the law, for the law only exists to teach the loveless how to love. You have it backwards. 8) Statement: I never argued that point. I just said Hebrews 10:25 clearly tells us to gather together. However even Jesus recognized the fact it took 12 to make a synagogue. Answer: Okay, so we are in agreement, then, that two or three is an adequate number, since you are not arguing it? We are also in agreement that Hebrew 10:25 tells us to gather together, though I will again point out that this "commandment" can be satisfied by a number as small as two, and the assembling can take place anywhere as set forth in the given parameters of the "command." I don't know where you got "even Jesus recognized the fact that it took 12 to make a synagogue." If you are referring to the 12 Apostles, it has often been related that there were 12 of them to represent the 12 tribes of Israel. Regardless, we are not talking about a Jewish synagogue. We are talking about a Christian assembling. 9) Statement: We can not fellowship with others at home, we are called to exhort encourage and edify. We are called to teach preach and baptize, We are call to be witnesses. All of which is impossible locked in our own little homes. Answer: I fellowship with others in my home every Thursday. We exhort, encourage, and edify each other not only on Thursday, but all week long on the phone and when we fellowship. I teach, preach and baptize all those I meet that hear me, and additionally, I meet more outside the walls than you do inside them. I am a witness to anyone I come accross, even in things so small as making sure I don't get a free french fry by mistake. We can do any of these things outside of the church walls. Continued ... |
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20 | Superior Hope | Heb 11:40 | Ancient | 127321 | ||
Ed, I am greatful that you have answered my questions. Since you have shown me the courtesy, I would return it in kind, point by point as you have given me. 1) Statement: Let’s look at just a few of the exceptions to your premise. Matthew 28:19-20, John 7:16 Acts 1:7 Act 2:38, 1 Cor 11:27 and 1 Cor 11:29. Answer: In what way do the passages cited lack the necessary detail to accomplish the task in what is said? I looked at each example you gave, and I found no commandment listed that was not given parameters so it could be followed. Seeing this, I find no exceptions to my premise. 2) Statement: Where does it say a commandment has to have parameters? If I tell you to pick up a stone is that not a command? Do I have to say pick up every stone, or one stone three times a day before it becomes a commandment? I think not! Answer: How can you keep a commandment if you don't know what it is or how to perform it? If you tell me to pick up a stone, and this is a command, I will pick up "a stone," as you did not give me parameters, and any stone would have satisfied the requirements of the non-specific command. If you tell me to pick one specific stone, but fail to specify which one it is, how am I to perform what you ask? So in the case of Hebrews, if this is a command, and the existing parameters are "don't stop assembling," then taking the available parameters provided, I am adhering to this teaching, exhortation, or commandment if I assemble with at least one other person in my home, at the mall, in the park, or anywhere else. Further, I can assemble any day I choose, once a week, once a month, or once a year. The passage simply does not say. So if we are to keep this "command," how can we do so without parameters? Unless it is not a command, but exhortation, and up to us to decide when, where, how, and how often. 3) Statement: Once again is the absence of parameters proof there is no commandment? What are the parameters on love you neighbor as yourself? Once again you say command must have parameters again I say "Pick up a stone" is very much a command and it carries not parameters. Answer: Either the absence of parameters is evidence there is no commandment, or we have a commandment that can be followed as we choose to follow it. "Pick up a stone" carries parameters. The command is to pick up an unspecified stone. This can be satisfied by picking up any random stone. The parameters of love: Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. I find that these parameters suffice for the sake of this discussion. See 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. 4) Statement: Love for God and love for each other prevents us from disobeying his commandments. Love is the motivator, obedience is the result, commandments are direction setters. Answer: Love for God and love for each other prevents us from disobeying his commandments. This is all that needed to be said. Although, it didn't really answer the question. Love does not have potential for failure. It seems we are agreeing on this, yes? That it does not? 5) Statement: You have said you do only what you determine is correct irregardless of what anyone else says. You have mocked the church, orthodoxy and said, "…I see something many don't see. Maybe that makes me wrong. Maybe that makes me special. Who knows which." Answer: I do see something many don't see. I feel blessed. I will continue to do only what I determine is correct, regardless of what anyone else says. I will try the spirits in love, and the Spirit will show me what is true and what is not. [1st John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.] Continued ... |
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