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Results		Verse	Author	ID#
1	when a I saved and when baptised	Rom 10:9	Aspiring Overseer	189707
	Brad, Since I assume you do not mean by your comment there is more than one way to contact the blood of Christ, the issue remains how do we know water baptism is the final step towards salvation. We, of course, have the very first instance of preaching the gospel by Peter: Acts 2:38-39 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. NAS We must be baptized into Christ. Since baptism by the Holy Spirit was only for the Apostles and the first gentiles, the only other Christian baptism mentioned in the NT is through water. Ephesians 4:4-7 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. NAS 1 Corinthians 12:13 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. NAS Galatians 3:26-27 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. NAS Hebrews 10:19-22 19 Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. NAS Acts 22:15-16 16'And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.' NAS Best regards, AO
2	when a I saved and when baptised	Rom 10:9	Aspiring Overseer	189706
	Dear Steve, Thank you for your reply and please forgive my delayed response. Your shear number of verses require a bit of work to address! You previously wrote in part: “If Acts 2:38 is interpreted as you interpret it, then we must reject other scripture. For example, what do you do with the following scriptures if your interpretation of Acts 2:38 is correct (John 3:16, Romans 4:1-17, Romans 11:6, Galatians 3:8-9, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc...)?” Letting Acts 2:38 speak for itself (as we should with all scripture), the gift of the Holy Spirit (salvation) is only received after water baptism. We should note that this is a gift received by all those who have believed, confessed, repented and are baptized. The baptism you refer to for Cornelius and his family was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Only completed twice in the Christian Age; once for the first Gentile converts and once for the first Jewish converts (the Apostles). Thus we have the example of the very first preaching of the Gospel of Christ: Acts 2:38 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. NAS Now, the other verses you list as being irreconcilable are: John 3:16 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. NAS We should note that “should” as in “should not perish” is completely conditional and must be subject to something else (i.e. obedience) and thus can not be honestly used to support the “grace alone” doctrine. Romans 4:3 3 For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." NAS We know that Abraham believed God because he did what he was commanded to do. He moved to another land, he offered up his son, etc.. All things requiring action (James 2:21-23) Romans 11:6-7 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. NAS The works referenced are works of the Mosaic Law. Fulfilled by Christ and no longer applicable (Romans 11:1-24) Galatians 3:6 6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. NAS It was only though Abraham’s actions that his faith was proven and the previous scripture fulfilled (James 2:21-23). Finally, Ephesians 2:8-9 simply does not say God requires nothing of His people for salvation. In fact, verse 10 specifically states that we were created for the good works God has commanded of all Christians. The passage, in context, instructs us that God’s plan of salvation was not brought about by any action of man, either Jew or Gentile, but is God’s gift to man through Christ Jesus. There was nothing any of us could have done to cause God to send His Son to be our sacrifice for sin. It was solely His choice; His design. Ephesians 2:8-10 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. NAS As an added bonus, we can also note that the Apostle Paul taught the reason for his own water baptism was to wash away sins. Acts 22:16-17 16'And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.' NAS If Paul’s sins had not been cleansed, how could he have been saved? In fact, he was not saved until he emerged from the waters of baptism, having fulfilled God’s commandment leading to eternal life. Best regards, AO
3	when a I saved and when baptised	Rom 10:9	Aspiring Overseer	189697
	Brad, The important point of 1 Peter 3:20-21 is not who was “wet”, but that God’s people where brought safely through the water. Those indeed who “got wet” and were disobedient to God were not saved. Also, as a point of clarification, water baptism does not by itself save anyone, but it is the only means by which the saving blood of Christ may be contacted. To obey everything else of God’s commands yet neglect water baptism is like building a bridge half-way across a river. It might look great as you are driving across, but it’s end will bring an unpleasant (and wet) surprise. Best regards, AO
4	when a I saved and when baptised	Rom 10:9	Aspiring Overseer	189613
	BradK, Thank you for your feedback. How many times must God cause to be written His commands before they are expected to be followed? If it is more than once, then a person should check themselves to see if they are in the faith. I agree that context is critical and that is why God included Romans 11:1-5 before giving us verse 6 so that we would know that the works which were ineffective were the works of the Law of Moses. This says nothing about excluding work from the Law of Faith. As to 1 Peter 3:21 being difficult to understand, its preceding verse should make abundantly clear that as eight were brought safely through the water, so God's people today are brought safely into the body of Christ through the same element. Best regards, AO
5	when a I saved and when baptised	Rom 10:9	Aspiring Overseer	189598
	Steve, Scripture is very clear on the mater that Christianity is simply not a "something for nothing" religion as is so often erroneously asserted. The natural man does indeed revise God's Word to agree with their desire to have no responsibility for their own actions. Thus the constant refrain of half-truths train and sustain a population who may have a great zeal for God, but not in accordance with the truth. They seek the easy road, stubbornly refusing to acknowledge their own God-given ability to chose between good and evil, they unwittingly proclaim themselves to be helpless souls, waiting for a "revelation" from God that they manufacture in their own minds, allowing themselves the "free pass" they crave from their daily deeds. The requirement of baptism for salvation has been contested since the later half of the first century, but Scripture is indeed clear on its necessity. Acts 2:38 38And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. NAS They chose to repent and be baptized in order to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:36 36And as they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" NAS He excitedly chose to be baptized as soon as it was physically possible. Acts 16:32-34 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. NAS They were immediately baptized. Why not wait until the rest of their friends and family could witness the event? Because they were acting on their faith that the words presented to them were the command of God. John 14:15 15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. NAS 1 Peter 3:21-22 21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. NAS Baptism now saves you by being the final step to the grace offered through the blood of Christ. God could not make it any clearer, “Baptism now saves you”. How? Not in itself, but through the individual’s obedience to the command of God, allowing that person to finally have a clear conscience before the Lord. Agree or disagree, each of us must make our own decision. Best regards, AO
6	when a I saved and when baptised	Rom 10:9	Aspiring Overseer	189531
	Steve, Thank you for your response. It is an interesting doctrine that people are called on to believe and confess God; both actions requiring human effort; yet water baptism is beyond the pale! You are correct in stating this subject has been discussed at length so I will not subject you or others following this thread to a repeat of the discussion. Please feel most welcome to contact me individually, if desired. Best regards, AO
7	when a I saved and when baptised	Rom 10:9	Aspiring Overseer	189485
	Steve, Thank you for an excellent post. Some folks may be confused by John’s baptism versus Christian baptism so I have taken the liberty to expand slightly on your work. Though John 1:33 and Matthew 21:25 refer to John's baptism, which has been supplanted, Christian baptism is unquestionably a commandment of God and must be obeyed for salvation. I have listed some of the verses here for easier following. God sent John to baptize and thereby establish its precedent. John the Baptist said, John 1:33 33 "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' NAS Jesus confirmed John’s action was commanded by God. While not the same as Christian baptism, it foreshadowed its arrival. Matthew 21:25 25 "The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?" And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' He will say to us, 'Then why did you not believe him?' NAS The Lord commands his disciples to baptize. Although given before the Church began, Christ confirms the action. Matthew 28:18-20 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. " NAS And, finally, Peter confirms the Lord’s command for baptism in the current age. Acts 10:48 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days. NAS As you so succinctly wrote, “It has nothing at all to do with legalism or salvation by works etc... but everything to do with humbling ourselves in submission to God in obedience to Him!”. Best regards, AO
8	Is Christmas and 25th Dec. biblical?	Bible general Archive 3	Aspiring Overseer	181132
	Kalos, Your assertion is quite interesting and made me ponder this new insight with respect to the Apostle Paul's wanderings through Athens in Acts 17:23. Maybe Paul's reason for being there was not to take advantage of an opportunity to teach Gentiles, but to actually do some sight-seeing among their objects of pagan worship? On further consideration, however, I think it is more reasonable to believe Jesus, as well as, Paul, went to where they could preach to the greatest number seeking to serve God. It would be a stretch to assert either one desired to promote pagan observances. AO
9	what is baptismin the bible	Mark 16:16	Aspiring Overseer	176584
	Brad, If God did not give an ordinance then what is the New Testament based upon? It appears from your statement that understanding God's requirements, or commandments, is not necessary for salvation. Why should baptism be rejected as needed for salvation while belief is not? Both require a person to work (do something, take action, etc.). AO
10	Every NATION or every PERSON?	Matt 24:14	Aspiring Overseer	169263
	Jeff, Acts 13:48 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. NAS Can not the “appointed” simply be understood as all those Gentiles who sought God in accordance with knowledge and believed Paul's preaching (i.e. they were sincere in their quest for the truth and desired to follow God rather than man)? God rewards those who seek Him. They simply made the proper choice. Interestingly, two verses before this we find another example of man's choice regarding obedience. Acts 13:46 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; since YOU repudiate it, and JUDGE YOURSELVES unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. NAS (emphasis added) The recipients of that message refused to accept the new covenant. Not because it was impossible, they simply chose not to obey. AO
11	Every NATION or every PERSON?	Matt 24:14	Aspiring Overseer	169258
	Hi Jeff, I understand your struggle with the doctrines mentioned. If it is God's will that all men should be saved why are so many lost? Specifically, you wrote: "If God desires that all be saved, then why is it that all were not elected/predestined to salvation?" Let's look at this concept in light of scripture. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. NAS Does not God hope that all men would be saved? What keeps that from happening? Is it God or ourselves? Are not the choices we make either pleasing or displeasing to God? Ezekiel 18:22-23 23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? NAS Ezekiel 18:32 32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live." NAS Ezekiel 33:11 11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?' NAS 1 Peter 3:11-12 11 "And let him turn away from evil and do good; Let him seek peace and pursue it. 12 "For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, And His ears attend to their prayer, But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil." NAS Throughout scripture God declares we must turn back to Him if we desire to live. Why would He create people who could not turn back and then instruct them as He did above? Is God a God of confusion? No, but His plan of salvation is hidden from those who do not seek Him in accordance with knowledge. Why is God's Master Plan with regard to predestination always assumed to mean that only a "select few" were predestined for salvation? Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. NAS Has God not foreknown every soul of mankind and could He not have desired that each one would become like Christ? It is no different for those of us who are parents. Do we not desire the best for each of our children? Are they not brought into the world with a hope that they will be "predestined" for success? I do not know any parent who has conceived a child so that they would fail. Obviously not all kids grow into successful adults. Is that by chance or by choices that have been made? Now the world will lean towards "chance" because they do not believe in the design of a creator. Those seeking God, however, know that nothing happens to them by chance. Only those that seek to be successful will actually reach their goal. Furthermore, salvation is for all men, not just for a select few. Titus 2:11-14 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. NAS 2 Peter 3:9-10 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. NAS I also recognize that not only a "considerable number" of bible scholars and theologians would disagree with me, but probably the majority of them. I hope that in time they might be persuaded to change their mind! :-) AO
12	Every NATION or every PERSON?	Matt 24:14	Aspiring Overseer	169215
	Jeff, 1 Timothy 2:3-5 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. NAS Please excuse my butting-in, but I believe the reconciliation of God's desire for all to be saved and the fact that few are is explainable by one thing: choice. Acts 17:25-27 26 and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; NAS God created all of mankind to seek Him in accordance with knowledge (Acts 17:24-28; Ro 10:2). While He desires that each one of his creations would seek Him, He knows that few will. Not by His design, but by their choice. In other words, He has designed each person with the ability to reason and desires that they should use that ability to serve Him (Is 1:18)! If they chose to serve something else, whatever their outward actions, they must bear the consequences. Whether the bushman continuing to practice the religion of his parents or the atheist who holds themselves as supreme, both, as God's creation, have the opportunity for salvation, but they must first chose to seek it! Matthew 6:33-34 33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you. NAS P.S. I appreciate your approach to scripture and look forward to future discussion. AO
13	Praying for the 'World'.	Matt 5:44	Aspiring Overseer	163882
	Doc, Clearly stated truth; yes, that is what we should all strive to achieve, is it not? You wrote, "I'm certainly glad that in my own life He didn't choose to leave me to make my own decisions about eternity. I'd have never made it.". Just how has that worked for you with God making your decisions? That would have been great for Ananias and Sapphira! Best regards, AO
14	Praying for the 'World'.	Matt 5:44	Aspiring Overseer	163826
	Dear Doc, A few more items for your consideration: Matt 13:45-46 45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it. NAS Note that the merchant was not simply given the “pearl”. First he sought it (action); found it (action); went and sold all he had (action) and bought it (etc.). Do you think he kept it a secret for the rest of his life or would he share his joy with others? Jer 9:23-24 23 Thus says the LORD, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; 24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice, and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things, "declares the LORD. NAS Those who understand and know God can certainly boast of their Lord. Their belief has been proven by their action and rewarded by God. They can confidently boast of this gracious system! AO
15	Praying for the 'World'.	Matt 5:44	Aspiring Overseer	163796
	Kalos, That salvation is a gift is not in question. It is simply a gift that is given to those who chose righteousness. Heb 11:5-7 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. NAS Tim Moran gave you this excellent verse previously: 2 Cor 5:17-21 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. NAS God has given us the plan of reconciliation,. We must act on that plan. AO
16	Praying for the 'World'.	Matt 5:44	Aspiring Overseer	163773
	The distinction is that the person chose to obey God. God then rewarded them by granting them the right to become one of His children. Man did not force his way in; he proved his faith. AO
17	Praying for the 'World'.	Matt 5:44	Aspiring Overseer	163772
	Doc, I appreciate your confusion as I think you may have misunderstood my previous posts. God created all mankind to chose Him. Many, unfortunately, rebell against God by refusing to chose Him. Matt 6:33 33"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you. NAS Luke 11:9 9"And I say to you, ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. NAS Man must first seek before finding. Answers to your Q's: Q1. No, they have already exercised their free will by failing to ask. Q2. No, man has first rejected Him. They do not hear (understand), because of their continued rebellion. Why should God throw pearls before swine? AO
18	Praying for the 'World'.	Matt 5:44	Aspiring Overseer	163733
	Doc, No, I am praying that God will grant them understanding. If that is against their will (choice), God will not allow the veil to be lifted further until they repent. It is still their choice. It is like the illustration of a drowning man praying for God to save him. God sends a boat, but the man waves them on telling them God will save him. A ship comes along next and they are waved on, as well. Finally a helicopter comes on scene and the man waves for them to leave, yelling "God will save me!". After finally drowning, his soul asks God, "Why did you not help me?". God did not change his will. It was the man who stubbornly refused to choose the way provided by God. James 4:8 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. NAS AO
19	Praying for the 'World'.	Matt 5:44	Aspiring Overseer	163705
	Hi Doc, Yes, I pray that people come to the knowledge of the truth so that they may be saved, but targeted specifically for those that are seeking God. It is my daily prayer to be able to speak the truth plainly to those individuals and that God lift the veil which has clouded their understanding. AO
20	denominations.	Eph 4:3	Aspiring Overseer	148899
	Hi Tim, I understand your opinion that this refers to the validity of the original penned words. My comment, however, remains that these words are not subject to interpretation by Christians. As all Christians have the gift of the HS, their teaching of Scripture is prophetic and of one accord, just as Peter’s. There can not be differing viewpoints, as the Holy Spirit's purpose is not to cause confusion or division, but to clarify and strengthen. Thus 2 Pe 1:20 merely states the obvious that his teaching of Scripture, like any mature Christian's, is not a matter of his opinion, but from God (thus, pay attention!). Obviously, non-Christians are free to interpret as they like and consequently we have a great number of differing opinions (i.e. denominations). AO

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