Results 281 - 300 of 729
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Results from: Notes Author: charis Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
281 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28162 | ||
Dear Emmaus, Greetings in the name of Jesus! C'mon, Brer Emmaus, don't be shy! :-) Seriously, my friend, I understand your not wanting to touch this one with a 39-1/2 foot pole. But this IS a Bible study forum, and for Christians to desire knowledge of their salvation is a worthy cause. I just don't want to get caught up in everyone stating their Cause, i.e. parroting what they learned in Sunday School or seminary. God is not simple, but salvation should be for all that He calls, the strong and the weak, the cocksure and the unsure, the high or low IQ, the learned and the educationally-challenged. Or am I barking up the wrong tree? How can we, or more approriately, WHY do we separate all the aspects of our relationship to God, except to argue!? My desire is to put together what man has sundered. Never fear, I shall continue to ask what we must do to be saved (in entirety). Blessings and peace upon you in Christ Jesus, charis |
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282 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28165 | ||
Dear Hank, Greetings, my friend, in Jesus' name! I guess I already requested details in my subsequent post "What is salvation?" below. :-) I am aware that I have asked similar questions before. But I don't quite feel I have been answered squarely, so I plug on... Anyway, as a minister of the Gospel, this subject is MUCH more interesting than Cain's wife or Judas' fate. God hasn't spoken to me directly about either of THOSE, but He did speak directly to my spirit (and soul?) about my salvation! :-) And this I share daily with the lost and the saved*. (*those who have been apprehended by God and now walk His path) Peace and joy to you and yours in Christ Jesus, charis |
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283 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28170 | ||
Dear Nolan, Greetings to you in Jesus' name! I must disagree that salvation is only instantaneous, and always accompanied by a new nature and a new life. I have heard the evangelist's boast that those that 'came forward today are completely new people.' Yet I have witnessed that such is not always the case, i.e. some do NOT change into 'completely new people.' The only conclusion I can draw from this observation is that there was either 1)no faith in those that came forth to claim salvation, or 2) salvation is both instantaneous (certain aspects) AND progressive, and that certain aspects of salvation take longer for some to manifest themselves than others. Otherwise we run the risk of calling some 'unsaved' when God HAS justified them by faith, albeit not yet manifest to "us." All I can say is that it doesn't take very long serving in a 'less desirable environment for salvation' to see this. Is it not possible that God sees that which we cannot? I really do want to bring forth the 'practical aspect' of salvation to our forum. :-) Blessings, My friend, in Christ Jesus, charis |
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284 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28171 | ||
Dear Robert, Greetings in the name of Jesus! Well, said! At least, I agree that you agree with me! :-) I also see that there are aspects of our salvation (I will call that 'God's sovereignly-initiated relationship with an individual believer) that cannot be called only instantaneous, except maybe from God's lofty vantage. He, of course, has an all-encompassing view of these things not bound by time or emotion. Thanks for your answer! In Christ Jesus, charis |
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285 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28180 | ||
Dear Nolan, Greetings in the name of Jesus! I admit that this post 'crosses threads' with several other posts! :-) You wrote: "When a person is saved by grace through faith, there are several instantaneous facets of salvation that occur: substitution, redemption from sin, reconciliation, propitiation, forgiveness, acceptance, deliverance and cleansing from sin, justification, adoption and eternal life." I agree with most of this list, but I am not quite sure that you could include 'cleansing from sin' and 'eternal life.' True, we could 'claim' present and future cleansing (sanctification?) from sin, and the hope of eternal life is imparted to us, but the (for us) reality is not yet ours. My friend, the basis for my notion of progressive salvation is indeed from the 'experiential' viewpoint. (I recognize that it is dangerous to rely solely on experience, it is equally dangerous to think that one can be without experiential influence. No person has ever been perfectly 'Biblical,' no matter how much they claim it. :-)) In order to shepherd God's people, a minister must 'observe' others. This must be discernment, not judgment. And I have on several occasions discerned faith without manifest 'saintliness.' The alternative is to become one that says, "I'm saved, but this fellow shows forth no fruit, so he must NOT be saved." I have also seen those that made a proclamation of faith, but did not bear fruit for years, so are they not saved until the fruition? I don't think so. The result of my observations AND study of the Word is that salvation is BOTH instantaneous and progressive. You see, my friend, one may think that their salvation experience was complete on a certain date, but I CAN prove through Scripture that no one has ever been cleansed from their sin to the point of sinlessness and saintliness! I thank you for some good points, but I still see that salvation is more than a 'point in time.' Salvation is the complete relationship we have with God, sovereignly initiated by Him in grace through the unction of His Spirit, and continuing until we meet Him in glory! There are many aspects to this salvation that DO occur in an instant, in the 'twinkling of the eye,' but other aspects of our salvation are now working toward the sure completion of His will. If you want to say that "God sees it as done," it is your prerogative, but many (in my humble experience) do not have your level (or standard) of faith. :-) Peace and joy in Christ Jesus, charis |
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286 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28198 | ||
Dear Joe! Greetings in Jesus' name! Well said, sir! I agree heartily with you about heresy and false brethren. Indeed, this 'cheap grace' is available wherever a minister is yearning for 'notches on his evangelical six-gun,' basking in the numbers of 'salvations' attributed his (dead) work. If one needed a license to preach the Good News to the lost, many 'veterans' would be guilty of 'professional negligence' and have their privilege pulled! :-) Seriously, a dearth of responsibility and discernment is evident in the church these days, and spiritual arrogance and self-serving ministry is rampant! I'll try to see if this book is available in Japan. It sounds good! (I'll tell them Joe! sent me :-)) Blessings and love in Christ Jesus, charis |
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287 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28203 | ||
Dear Searcher, Greetings from Nippon in Jesus' name! So... both, right? Great research, brother! Thanks for a Scriptural answer. In Christ Jesus, charis |
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288 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28261 | ||
Nolan, Nolan, Nolan, Peace to you in Jesus' name! Please reread my posts, all of them if you must, and tell me that you truly think I deny the cleansing work of the blood of Christ and God's assurance of eternal life at the moment of apprehension by the Holy Spirit. My friend, I am merely trying to say that some folks don't have the same intellect, the same ability to grasp faith, the same upbringing in a Christian home, the same atmosphere of Judeo-Christian faith, the same environment of relative peace, the same freedom to express feeling or faith. There are those that are not able, for one reason or another, to appropriate and apply the faith that God gives. From a minister's point of view, a person that is touched by the Lord, then immediately starts walking in a manner worthy of this calling, studying the Word, fellowshipping with the saints, responding to the call of service, seeking and manifesting his gifts, this person is a JOY! It 'appears' that the work of the Holy Spirit is done! (Frankly, I don't think I have ever met anyone truly 'done' :-)) But there are just as many, or more, that flail and struggle, stumble and fall, but get back up again and continue to trust in the work of Christ. These are not the 'golden boys,' but the somewhat 'embarrassing' Christians. But they are God's children nonetheless! And I mean NONE THE LESS! My point of describing 'apparent' salvation is for such as these. If we do not explain that the work of the Holy Spirit is ongoing, these saints will be judged (and I mean judged, not discerned) by their peers as unworthy. This is sad and wrong, but true anyway. For you, with your ability to accept by faith complete salvation, there are the Scriptures that support a 'done deal.' Good for you! :-) But for others of weaker constitution, there are Scriptures that clearly speak of God's grace being continually poured out, working afresh today and tomorrow. Their salvation is assured daily (see above Scripture), not upon a past event. Indeed, some look back with shame for their failings, and wonder if the Lord really touched them. Then they open their Bible, or hear the preached Word that says, "My son, your sins are forgiven, again. (and AGAIN!)" You may try to intellectually argue with these people that they are really 'still' saved, but they don't see it the way you do. Nolan, for myself, I see things much the way you do. But I am called to (also) see how others know salvation. I am merely trying to state my observations. I was once told that I was not called to 'relate' with people, but only to 'relay' the message. I did that for a while, but found that it did not bear fruit, but only created a bigoted church. (with MY bigotry!) Several years ago, I said 'sayonara' to that method, and have been blessed with a peace I never knew before. The peace that comes from serving God's people, not MY people. There you have it! Sorry for the inclusion of 'experience!' :-) Love and joy to you in Christ Jesus, charis |
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289 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28263 | ||
Dear Ed, Greetings in the name of Jesus! I receive your post in the spirit given! Thank you! I guess that my question about salvation is for those that DON'T understand Greek, barely getting by in English (or Japanese). There are many that cannot grasp the concept of instantaneous complete salvation. To these it is 'theory' or 'mystical,' and the past is but a vague memory, with many shameful events clouding their vision. These folks, fellow saints, need faith today (and probably tomorrow), because yesterday's faith didn't seem (to them) to work very well. To these, progressive salvation IS salvation! No matter what the pundits say, no matter the Scripture that says the future glory is available in their hearts now because of a past confession. These need reassurance daily, and the Psalm above seems to provide this new, fresh (re)assurance. Bless you for a thoughtful post! In Christ Jesus, charis |
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290 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28418 | ||
Dear Nolan, (now that I have your attention! :-)) Greetings to you in the name of Jesus! Friend, you must know what I mean, because your post reflects it! :-) The main difference of opinion that we seem to have is that you separate sanctification, glorification and our eternal walk with the Lord from salvation. I believe that all of these things are an integral part of our salvation. In other words, salvation equals our entire relationship with God, most of which has not yet come to pass, though all of it is assured by His promises. I think that the letters by Peter and James (who were shepherds!) speak of this. Blessings and love to you in Christ Jesus, charis |
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291 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28474 | ||
Dear Nolan, Greetings in Jesus' name! So, are sanctification and glorification part of salvation? "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:12,13 NASB. "Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:13,14 NASB. "The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, But the soul of the diligent is made fat." Proverbs 13:4 NASB. "Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable." 1 Corinthians 9:24,25 NASB. "Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience." Hebrews 4:11 NASB. Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary." Galatians 6:7-9 NASB. "...but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen." 2 Peter 3:18 NASB. Brother, there are more than a few more Scriptures that speak of the pursuit of salvation. None of them are salvation by works! But the holy desire to finish what God has done in our hearts, by serving Him, by giving our wills to Him. God perfects us in this life, to the end of glorification, which is the culmination of our relationship with God. Our God wants us to live a saved life, and is pleased with us when we confirm His work through submission. No one is saying we get saved over and over again. :-) But we ARE saved daily! Peace and joy in Christ Jesus, charis |
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292 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28476 | ||
Dear CDBJ, Greetings in the name of Jesus! Indeed this is good food for thought! Without a lot of research on my own, I will just say that some may be upset with a ' mid-relationship salvation point.' If I get your drift, we are not truly saved until a point in time when the Word has worked in us (gestation?) for a while, then we are born again. At this point in time the work is done, with no further saving work in our lives. Is that right? I still see that the Holy Spirit would be working in our lives sanctification to the end of glorification. This sounds a lot like a separate 'conversion' experience some time after we meet the Lord. Brother, don't get me wrong! :-) I am not completely against the idea of conversion. The reason that I cannot deny it completely is because the IS empirical evidence that many DO come to a (later) point of 'knowing' God. (as compared to meeting Him) But I have to say that it could lead to a (as one brother phrased) 'dreaded two-tiered Pentecostal salvation.' Actually, my thoughts do not run in 'tiers' at all, but a sense of our whole relationship with the Lord, with many portions or aspects. Some are synchronous, some are progressive. It starts when the Holy Spirit initiates the relationship, and culminates personally when we meet Him face to face, and corporately when He finishes His glorious plan of salvation for mankind. In any case this question was brought forth as food for thought, and I have enjoyed the various opinions! Thank you! In Christ Jesus, charis |
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293 | Salvation: Instantaneous, progressive? | Ps 68:19 | charis | 28568 | ||
Dear Nolan, Greetings in the name of Jesus! I am not saying that we are born again and again. I am not saying that we re-crucify Jesus. Both of those statements imply that we lose are salvation and are in need of another jolt of salvation juice, and I have never said anything of the sort. I have always been a champion of NOT losing salvation, so these statements are far from applicable to my opinion. (not contention:-)) I am saying (again) that I believe that sanctification and glorification are part and parcel of our salvation experience, our still-progressing knowledge of God, and the God-initiated relationship we have with Him to the fulfilling of His purposes. You are saying that salvation is our justification experience, that leads to sanctification, that leads to glorification. Frankly, that doesn't sound too different from what I have been saying all along. (except that you insist on using the word instantaneous) :-) Friend Nolan, why do you keep saying that I am saying that we are born again and again, saved again and again? I do not believe in several tiers of salvation, nor do I believe in a flip-flop relationship with God based on our works. Peace and joy in Christ Jesus, charis |
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294 | Are the Seven Deadly Sins in the Bible? | Prov 6:16 | charis | 4322 | ||
Dear friend Nolan, Please do not think that I am dismissing anything. Usually this would mean a superior dismissing an inferior. Quite the oppposite, I find such philosophical thought beyond my humble abilities. To quote you," Now we know that there is one sin that is unforgiveable- that being blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. And God sees all of our sins in the same way and forgave them all through Christ." This is enough for me. Others may decide to dwell further into the matter. I have studied philosophy, and was saved from it when apprehended by Jesus. Right now, Francis Schaeffer is as deep as I get, and he prefers a 'simpler is better' philosophy. If you are better able to understand your battle with sin through classification and application of corresponding virtue, far be it from me to discourage you from that practice. You did ask for thoughts. Some may be deeper, some may be shallower, and some may be exactly the same as yours:-) I only pray that my own 'shallow' method would be effective to combat the sin and temptation I face. Some may be encouraged by your way, and some may find strength in mine. I pray that our combined proposition of faith, and discussion thereof, would help someone. Please do continue to post your thoughts, and bear with me when I am not in complete agreement with you. I enjoy what you write, and never think of it as 'wrong.' Peace unto you in Christ Jesus, charis |
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295 | Are the Seven Deadly Sins in the Bible? | Prov 6:16 | charis | 4373 | ||
Dear Nolan, Shu ware wo aisu...Waga Shu Iesu, Ware wo aisu. (Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so, in Japanese) Friend, no offense taken, or even thought of. Blessings upon you in the abundance of Christ. I really do enjoy discussing such things with you, my brother. Maybe one day we can wash one another's feet! In Jesus' name, charis |
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296 | Isn't Prophecy a Spiritual Gift? | Isaiah | charis | 24317 | ||
Dear casiv, No, Malachi is NOT the last prophet. The Lord Jesus Christ is Prophet, Priest and King. I believe that His revelations to mankind come after Malachi. John the Apostle wrote the Book of Revelation, which is most assuredly prophecy. Your statement is not in accord with Scripture. In Christ Jesus, charis |
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297 | Christian Response To Eastern Thought? | Is 55:11 | charis | 30286 | ||
Dear Jensen, Greetings in Jesus' name! I hope that what I share is of some use to you: I heard a bit about Fulan Gong from a missionary that recently returned from mainland China (Beijing). According to him, this 'religion' is as much an organization of 'political activism' as anything else. The religious aspects seems to be made up to give some kind of legitimacy to their agenda to change the system from the status quo (at least in China). What they will change it to seems to be somewhat vague. I guess the only thing you could infer is that the leaders of the cult will be 'up there' somewhere. :-) Details are wanting because there are none! It seems to be a purposely vague 'everything ought to be better' religion that uses all kinds of stimuli. Included would be bodily health, world peace, (empty) philosophy of a mystical nature, and more than anything, disatisfaction with the present coupled with (idealistic) claims of an answer for a better future. As usual, the plan or agenda has little in the way of concrete methodology to attain this goal. Friend, I know this continues to be a bit shallow, but that is because Fulan Gong is so shallow. It doesn't even seem that their ways are a 'secret of the enlightened' either, like some cults. It is simply lack of content. Maybe this is what is so enticing? I pray that this will give you something to bring up to your friend. See if he has knowledge of any true 'depth' to this rather empty cult. As others have already noted, prayer on your part, and using the Word of God effectively are the best ways to battle with cultic influence. In Christ Jesus, charis |
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298 | Christian Response To Eastern Thought? | Is 55:11 | charis | 30408 | ||
Dear Jensen, Greetings in Jesus' name! Check out the following: http://www.religiousfreedom.com/nwslttr/icrfrpt040172.pdf You said you went to the official page, and you are right, it is just religious propaganda. You may want to also check out Trancendental Meditation, much of it is similar. Also very close is the religious aspect of Karate and other martial arts. Most focus on 'qui' (Chinese) or 'ki' or 'ki-ai' (Japanese) which is the 'power that is within you.' These religions say that when you become aware of 'that which is in you,' you have power. Finally, you seem to think that if you know more about it you may know how to help your friend. Frankly, I don't think that this is so. These fellows 'cover every base' with mysticism, so there is little room for hearing common sense. Pray for him, and speak the Word that is so much more than 'common sense!' In Christ Jesus, charis |
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299 | Christian Response To Eastern Thought? | Is 55:11 | charis | 30558 | ||
Dear Jensen, Greetings in the name of Jesus! Friend, please do not misunderstand me. I do not preach ignorance of cults. I am saying that merely becoming expert in them will not make you able to battle against them. Apologetics is the ability to accurately portray your faith in Christ Jesus, not the study of other religions. That is a peripheral study. Fear not for empty shelf space at the local Christian book store. :-) By the way, I do speak from some experience. I have been involved in Eastern cults myself, before Christ, and know first-hand (close up and personal) about ki, ki-ai, aikido and bushido. Knowing about these things may give me some insight into the heart of the deceived, but it is the Word of God that convicts someone to abandon these practices. Truly, it would be much easier if my knowledge of such things would help my ministry. I could just 'subdue' them unto Jesus! :-) Peace to you in Christ Jesus, charis |
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300 | Does Jeremiah 14 and 15 relate to U.S. | Jeremiah | charis | 19313 | ||
Dear Norrie, Greetings in Jesus' name! As on that used as many expletives as possible in a previous life (son of a soldier), I can say that it is difficult to stop. But maybe that is the point! Stop saying so much. :-) We may call them exclamations or even expletives, but if the tone is a curse, it is not pleasing to God. Friend, I understand your concern about being too picky, but if we think about all of the 'abbreviated' curses and complaints that spill forth from our lips, most would be stillborn. On another related topic, at what age would you allow children to express themselves? Is this what we want in the next generation of Christians? Not me! In my position as an educator, I can clearly see that these 'expressions' do not release stress, but encourage it! Teaching self-control to kids, especially self-control of the tongue allows it to be of more use for the Lord, IMHO. I know that many will cry 'legalism!' That is your prerogative. But remember: "Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few." Ecclesiastes 5:2 NASB. Peace and wisdom in Christ Jesus, charis |
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