Results 21 - 40 of 65
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Results from: Notes Author: bubbatate Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
21 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53467 | ||
Dear Joe……in response to a healthy debate between you and Simchat….I would like to add my two shekles. Simchat said: "Too many people make the Torah and the covenant at Sinai synonymous, they are not, the Torah is eternal and an entity to itself." You said: “Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel. The Law of Moses was given at the same time as the covenant was ratified.” Dt 4:5-8 (below) indicates that one of the functions of Torah was to witness to the nations the superiority of the LORD and His ways: Dt 4:5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? Torah was supposed to have an affect upon people outside the covenant, but never imposed upon them. Just like people all over the world hear about the United States and want to come here and live under our system, our Constitution, I believe Israel was supposed to so move other people……to entice them to become an Israelite, or pattern their nation after Israel’s example and live under Torah, Israel’s constitution. This is the pattern prescribed for THE LAST DAYS in Isa 2:2-3……notice, the Torah is not a mandate externally imposed on the nations, the nations are enthusiastically seeking the Torah: Isa 2:2 “In the LAST DAYS days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and ALL NATIONS will stream to it. 3 Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law (Torah) will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (notice “Torah” and “the word of the LORD” are synonymous). Does the New Covenant with Israel have any implications for the people outside the New Covenant people of Israel? No……..except as mentioned above for the Old Covenant……outsiders are free to join up, just as they are in Isa 56:6. The Torah must carry over to the New Covenant and not go away with the Old because it is the mainstay of the N.C. (Jer 31:33)……Torah is in your minds and your hearts. In fact, I can’t understand how anyone can bad mouth the Torah and say they are “New Covenant people”……. The New Covenant IS only for Israel and Judah. (Jer 31:31)…and Torah is in your mind and heart (Jer 31:33)….if one fails to meet either of these criteria….it is impossible to be His New Covenant people. continued next........ |
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22 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53468 | ||
continued from above...... Ultimately, I don’t believe that anyone from “the nations”, or any biological Jew, for that matter, is going to be on the scene except for those who enthusiastically choose Torah as in Isa 2:3. So, to respond to your statement, “Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel.” It can’t be demonstrated for it was never so, Torah never had any implications for anyone outside of the LORD’s covenants……neither Old nor New..…except that hopefully others of the nations (that’s us) would choose to “bind themselves to the LORD” by choosing to come under His covenant. (again, see Isa 56:6). If I may insert a side bar here for Johnny……he referred to Torah as “your Torah” when addressing Simchat……in one respect it is Simchat’s Torah in that he has chosen Torah, it is in his mind and heart…….but I don’t think that was what Johnny meant. Torah is “thus saith the LORD”…….it is His Torah and the word of the LORD stands forever. What did Y’shua have to say to satan? “It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." (Mt 4:4). Where do we find “every word that comes from the mouth of God” that man is to “live on”? Isn’t He saying, to paraphrase, “Man lives on Torah alone”? Is it a coincidence that Messiah Y’shua affirms the Torah in satan’s face? “Every word that comes from the mouth of God” is Torah, which is translated as “nomos/law” in the NT. The one who comes against Y’shua, the anti-messiah, satan’s henchman, is referred to as “anomos” (without “nomos”/lawless) in II Th 2:8. There you have it……The Messiah Y’shua is pro-Torah, the anti-messiah is anti-Torah……..Y’shua is the master of Truth, the anti-messiah is the master of deceit through lies. If Y’shua would come back today and preach, “Man is to live by every word that comes from the mouth of God…..and that’s the Torah” he would be dismissed as the “anti-christ” by most Christians, because that statement does not line up with their theology. If one sees Jesus as having abolished the “nomos”…….that makes Jesus “anomos”. An ominous conclusion. The defense rests…… Thanks Joe…….Bub |
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23 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53581 | ||
Greetings back at ya, Steve, I really didn’t want to make an issue out of bestiality……I just used it as an illustration in addressing Johnny’s remark. However, I would like to respond to some of the points that you made. You said: “God's law is written on our minds and in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), not in the Torah.” Your statement doesn’t compute since “Torah” is the Hebrew word used in Jer 31:33 so your statement would actually read……”God’s Torah is written on our minds and in our hearts, not in the Torah.” It doesn't make sense. You said: “We have the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us to discern it (John 14:26).” We need discernment on a lot of the Torah in many cases…..i.e. how do we accurately apply it to our 21st century culture……e.g. “Do not kindle a fire on the Sabbath”. Some discern this as do not use your stove, microwave or car (internal combustion engine),etc. My personal take is that building a fire was “work” lo those 4000 years back and since the focus of the Sabbath is no work, it is not the fire per se which was a no no but the work involved in kindling same. As for the Holy Spirit’s role concerning the Torah……We have the gift of the Holy Spirit to enable us to do Torah (Eze 36:26-27). You said: “Jesus told his followers to follow his commands (John 14:21), not the commands the Father gave Moses.” Are you saying that the Father and the Son are on different wave lengths? The Father gave the commandments to “His people” through Moses. Are you one of “His people”? What are you going to do with Rev 12:17, 14:12 and I Jn 2:3-6; 3:21-24; 5:2-3; II Jn 1:4-6, all of which, with specificity tell us to obey the commandments of the Father. What did Y’shua mean when He said, “Do the will of My Father”? (Mt 1:21; 12:50). If Y’shua and the Father are one, the commandments they promote are identical or else they are a house divided. You said: “And we have the grace of God and the shed blood of Christ to cover us when we make a mistake in knowing or following them (see, for example, the New Testament).” I remember the “everybody makes mistakes” crowd in defending Bill Clinton’s adultery……locking your keys in the car is a mistake…adultery is intentional sin. There is no grace nor sacrifice for willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua. See I Jn 3:9; 5:18 and especially look at Heb 10:26-31 below and the comments following. HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Notice…..The writer of Hebrews quotes Torah to make his point…..if Torah was just for “Old Testament” Hebrew types….why is he quoting it to make a New Testament point? Also, what he quoted was Dt 32:35 and 36 which is included in the “Song of Moses” of Rev 15:3. The “Song of Moses” is the Torah….see Dt 31:22 and 24. You said: “You can't expect Christians to welcome the spectre of works-righteousness or the heavy yoke of the Law.” That is not my expectation by a long shot, I know that Christians love their doctrines…..but keep in mind….I am not spewing my opinions…..I am just asking you to consider scripture which has been long overlooked by most Christians. Y’shua taught “do” and “teach” the commandments in the Torah (Mt 5:19)……not for brownie points but because it’s the law of the land in the Kingdom. As to “the heavy yoke of the Law”, it’s ironic that Ps 119 extols the magnificence of, exuberant joy in, and love of the Torah, yet most Christian’s see Torah as “a burden/a heavy yoke”. Christians will enthusiastically sing from Ps 119:105 “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.” (The Amy Grant version, of course……sorry, couldn’t resist). In the context of Ps 119…..Christians are thereby singing, “Your Torah is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.” In song they profess Torah and in doctrine adamantly deny it. Thanks Steve…….Bub |
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24 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53585 | ||
Hey again, Steve....trying to get caught up on correspondence...... Re your comment: "No, I'm not denying that passage (I Jn 2:6). But how did Jesus walk that we should imitate? Total obedience to the Father." Then you cite Php. 2:5-8 about Y'shua's obedience in going to the cross. What are you saying? That's a wonderful scripture that you quoted, but what does that have to do with OUR "total obedience to the Father"? Y'shua walked as a Torah obedient Jew....isn't that the pattern for how we should walk? Thanks Steve.........Bub |
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25 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53627 | ||
Dear Joe…… I can’t find the posting to which you responding, I apologize…..can you give me the date and time etc. so I can find it? Re your comment: “You failed to address my arguments regarding Acts 15, Galatians, Ephesians 2, Colossians 2, and Hebrews, all which apparently point out that the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the Torah have been consummated in Yeshua.” I can still can address the statement……you use the word “apparently”……can you give me a “definitely”? The sacrificial aspects being over, I can buy……there’s no physical temple, ergo there can be no physical sacrifices……yet Paul was still making sacrifices after the resurrection while the temple was still standing. What do you mean by “ceremonial” aspects? The Levitical services? Again, with no temple the Levites are out of a job. Re your comment: “What do you do with Galatians if the ENTIRE Torah is binding on all of God's covenant people today?” That’s easy……..I go to Mt 5:18-19, Y’shua said it….that settles it. Thanks Joe…….Bub |
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26 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53638 | ||
Dear Joe, I’m afraid I cannot agree with your segmenting of the Law into moral and ceremonial facets, especially in relationship to Ps 119……. the word “all” shows up 7 times in Ps 119……as in, for instance, Ps 119:160 “ALL your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.” (see also Ps 119:6, 13, 86, 128, 151, 172). EVERY “thus saith the LORD”, according to Ps 119:160, is not only true but true for all eternity. You said, “It is God's moral commandments for our behavior which David embraces in Psalm 119 (and in Psalm 19 as well).” In what verse is this “moral” only aspect stated? As for “What Christians (and the Jewish believers) saw as a heavy yoke is the ceremonial aspects of the Law and the sacrificial requirements that came with violating God's moral commandments.” That statement assumes that the first generation Christians were going around breaking moral commandments and it was such a hassle to do the sacrifice thing…….there’s an easy way to avoid the hassle……don’t sin. I’m sure going to prison is a “burden” for someone who breaks our civil laws…….but I don’t, on a personal level, see going to prison as burden……I choose not to break the law….ergo the burdensome penalty will never affect me. I also notice that you mention Christians AND Jewish believers……..were there two separate factions? Under what category is the commandment, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."? (Mt 22:37; quoting Dt 6:5). Moral or ceremonial? Or is there yet a third category? Also notice that Deuteronomy (Dt 11:1,13,22 etc.)goes on to define loving the LORD as keeping ALL His commandments…….would Y’shua have meant anything less when He quoted Dt 6:5? Did John, in IJn 5:2-3 mean just some of the commandments? Unless otherwise specifically substantiated.....the only safe way to go is to go with ALL. Ex 20:6 speaks of “showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.” This statement is included in the first of the ten commandments…….but in that He uses the plural, "commandmentS", He cannot only be referring to the first commandment, but to the nine following as well…..including the 4th commandment, which I have noted has come up recently on the forum for discussion. Also…….are the “thousand generations” who are to love Him and keep His commandments” just Old Testament generations? I think not, do the math. Thanks Joe…….Bub |
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27 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53651 | ||
Salutations Steve, Sorry, I didn't mean to duck your questions.....as I said, I was responding to Johnny who in essense said he wanted nothing to do with the old testament, if Jesus didn't specifically teach it he’s not buying it". My example of bestiality was just an example of how you can't expect every nuance of life to be addressed with specificity in the NT......your list of questions illustrates the same point. It’s a no brainer which is why I didn’t even bother to respond. I had to use an Old Testament law to disprove his point because he was bad mouthing the OT. But then you are looking for me to cite a specific OT law against your list.....I never said that the OT commands were all inclusive…..but a lot of people, like Johnny, think that the NT is. You can’t imagine how sorry I am that I opened my big mouth about bestiality, yikes! However, I can’t let your other comments slide….You said: “And that was my point about misunderstanding or misapplying God's will to which you said "There is no grace nor sacrifice for willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua." With all due respect, that is pure bunk. Read 1 John 1:8-2:2.” With all due respect, get your scissors, I personally prefer a single edged razor blade, and remove Heb 10:26 and 29 from your Bible…..it’s pure bunk. I Jn 1:8 and 2:2 are great but you have to reconcile them with IJn 3:6, 9 and IJn 5:16-18…..John is saying there is a sin, AMONG THE BROTHERS…..that would indicate a sin committed by a professed believer…. that leads to death (one of those listed below)…..it apparently is a sin which the blood of Y’shua doesn’t cover. There are a host of sins in the OT for which there was no sacrifice…..the offender was the dead meat….no grabbing an animal and heading for the Tabernacle….they include: Breaking commandments 1 and 2--Lev 20:2 Breaking the 3rd commandment--Lev 24:14-16 Breaking the 4th commandment—Ex 35:2; Nu 15:33-35 Breaking the 5th commandment—Dt 21:18:21; Ex 21:15, 17; Lev 20:9 Breaking the 6th commandment--Ge 9:5-6; Nu 35:16-21, 30-33; Dt 17:6 Breaking the 7th commandment—Lev 20:10; Dt 22:22 Consulting a medium or spiritist—Lev 20:27 Prophesying falsely or propagating false doctrines—Dt 13:6-10 False worship—Dt 17:2—8 Promiscuity—Dt 22:20-21; Lev 21:9 Incest—Lev 20:11-12, 14 Practicing homosexuality—Lev 20:13 Bestiality—Ex 22:19 Rape of a betrothed virgin--Dt 22:25 Kidnapping--Ex 21:16; Dt 24: Witchcraft--Ex 22:18 Offering human sacrifice--Lev 20:2-5 Sacrificing to false gods--Ex 22:20 Refusing to abide by the decision of the court--Dt 17:12 Anyway……if there was no blood atonement for the above under the Old Covenant sacrificial system, there can be no atonement with Y’shua’s blood once you have professed commitment to the New Covenant……which can’t be stated more clearly than in Heb 10:26,29. If you would like me to address Galations please give me specific passages to look at. Thanks Steve…………Bub |
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28 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53701 | ||
Dear Hank…… I’m having an ongoing dialogue with Steve. My flippant use of the word “bunk” can’t be understood without knowing to what I am responding…..I didn’t think of the impact my statement would have when read as an isolated comment……..sorry. Here’s the deal, my original comment was, “There is no sacrifice for intentional, willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua. See I Jn 3:9; 5:18 and especially look at Heb 10:26-31 below and the comments following.” HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Steve’s reply was, “And that was my point about misunderstanding or misapplying God's will to which you said "There is no grace nor sacrifice for willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua." With all due respect, that is pure bunk. Read 1 John 1:8-2:2. But I see why you're not worried about no longer being able to sacrifice since you have achieved perfection in this life. ;-) .” My remark, which you are addressing, was pure sarcasm……he said that what I said about there being no sacrifice, including Y’shua’s blood, for willful sin was “pure bunk”….if that statement is “pure bunk” then you have to conclude that Heb 10:26 is also “pure bunk”…that was my point. I hope you can follow that. Since I have your ear and respect your opinion…….am I correct in concluding that the sins for which there was no sacrifice in the OT, the penalty was death (I listed most of these in a post yesterday to Steve), is what Heb 10:26 is referring to? (Nu 15:30: " But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people. [31] Because he has despised the LORD's word and broken his commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.") Thanks Hank……..Bub |
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29 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53702 | ||
Dear IISa...... Hank's response to my now regretted and misunderstood post was similar to yours....please see my reply to him (7/8/02 6:44 am). What is your take on Heb 10:26-31? Thanks for your concern, I apologize......Bub |
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30 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53703 | ||
Dear Steve, I think what I Sa. is saying is pretty much what I said……if you obey you don’t have to worry about the sacrifice …….God prefers the obedience over screwing up and having to offer a sin sacrifice. What is “the heart of faith”? What is living by ones faith? Israel was admonished for being "unfaithful" or "faithless" in not having “faithfully” followed the LORD’s commandments. “Unfaithfulness” is disobedience…….ergo “faith” is obedience. Hab 2:4 could be read….”the righteous shall live by his obedience.” Dt 32:20 "I will hide my face from them," he said, "and see what their end will be; for they are a perverse generation, children who are unfaithful.” Who are unfaithful children? Children who are without faith. Notice this verse is from “The Song of Moses” referred to in Rev 15:3. Check ya later……..Bub |
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31 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53752 | ||
Hi Joe…… Here’s the deal…….I don’t know what to do with certain passages…….for instance, most Christians conclude they need not live Torah because Paul said: “The Law is not of faith” “I am dead to the Law” “We are delivered from the Law” “Messiah is the end of the Law for righteousness” “If you are led of the Spirit, you are not under the Law” “By deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified” “The Law brings wrath” Messiah “abolished in his flesh….the commandments” “A man is not justified by observing the Law but by faith in Y’shua Mashiach.” I, however, conclude that we are to live Torah because Paul said: “Do we make void the Law through faith? God forbid.” “With the mind I myself serve the Law of God.” “I delight in the Law of God.” “The righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us.” “The Law is spiritual.” “Doers of the Law shall be justified” “The Law is holy.” “The commandment is holy, just and good.” “The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law.” “I worship the God of my fathers believing all things which are written in the Law and Prophets.” “We are created unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.” The same person, Paul, said everyone of these things…….please explain to me how do you reconcile both lists? What I do is look for another witness to confirm what Paul said. I can find witnesses to confirm the second list, but I cannot find a witness to confirm the first list. My comment, “Y’shua said it, I believe it.” was another sarcastic comment on my part (I have to stop doing that) as a parallel to the popular Christian saying, “God said it, I believe it.”….which strikes me as a goofy comment from someone who doesn’t believe that the seventh day is the Sabbath. Singing the Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb……Bub |
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32 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53760 | ||
Hank......I can't thank you enough for the heads up on Spurgeon......it was awesome!!! It made me nostalgic for that "old time religion".....they just don't preach like that anymore. Thanks again.....Bub |
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33 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53786 | ||
Dear IISa…….. Thanks for your input. I don’t believe that all sin is willful, for instance, sometimes a “white lie” will be out of my mouth before I know it……sometimes I get angry without a moment’s notice and sometimes I say things hastily that I regret and know were wrong and hurtful…..sometimes I see a cool car and wish it was mine……those are sins, i.e. missing the mark…..but they were not willful, I did not decide to do them, but there they are…..I do confess these shortfalls and try to curb my impulsiveness in the future…..with varying degrees of success. A willful sin is one you contemplate before hand, know it’s wrong, and go for it anyway. Also, I believe that calling good evil and evil good is willful sin. For instance, many practicing homosexuals, with the blessings of their pastors, say that homosexual sex is not a sin….just because they choose not to accept God’s definition of sin they are, I think, in the LORD’s eyes sinning willfully and defiantly…..and the preachers who encourage them, in the name of “love” are false teachers. I know a certain popular TV preacher, who over and over again has said there’s no sin, past, present or future which is not forgiven once you have "received Jesus into your heart", and once saved always saved……almost like carte blanche……Those kinds of statements seem to mislead a lot of people into seeing “salvation” as their get out of jail free card. Look at the letters to the churches in the Revelation, Y’shua is speaking to “church” people, not heathens……5 out of 7 are messing up……he doesn’t comfort them with sweet talk about grace and forgiveness……He says “Repent or else!”. This was only about 60 years after the resurrection and five-sevenths of the congregations were in pathetic shape…..we are over 2000 years removed …….what’s contemporary Christendom’s ratio of right track vs wrong track today….can we assume it’s better or worse than two-sevenths going in the right direction? Of course, every denomination thinks that they are “Philadelphia” and the one around the corner is “Laodicia”. Mt 7:21 also comes to mind…… "Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?” [23] Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers (practitioners of lawlessness)!” Y'shua specifically defines who will be rejected, calling them “anomia” (no law or without law) doers……the opposite then, those who will enter the kingdom, would be those who live the Law (nomos) i.e. do the will of the Father as Y’shua said. (I’m sure you know this, but just to be clear…..when Greek puts an “a” in front of a word…..it is the opposite of that word. As in “atheist”……a “theist” is one who acknowledges God…..and we all know what putting an “a” in front of that means….it’s the exact opposite.) The above, Mt 7:21, is also talking about “church” people……not heathens…..they must be really serious and active “church” people….into prophesy, driving out demons and performing miracles…..all in the name of the Messiah (they’re “giving him the glory”)…..with all this going on they must also be very visible in the congregation and a huge influence on others. This is scary stuff. Y’shua is offering no grace and no blood covering.....they are already standing in His presence.....it’s too late for repentance, the grace period is over…..they’re dead meat. Were they knowingly sinning? Apparently not….they’re shocked to find that they’re not in the loop. My guess is they did not know they were sinning because their definition of sin was amiss…….which illustrates that ignorance, which is seen as ignoring the Torah in Hosea, is not an excuse. [Hos 4:6 “My people are destroyed from LACK OF KNOWLEDGE (ignorance). Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because YOU HAVE IGNORED THE TORAH OF YOUR GOD, I also will ignore your children.“] We don’t know specifically what the Mt 7:21 people were up to so that we can specifically avoid the pit they got themselves into……Y’shua simply categorizes them as “lawless”…….so how then can we avoid their downfall? By being “lawful” I would think……how do you practice “lawfulness”…..by being full of the Law (i.e. accept it fully, not partially). Frankly, and brutally, in my opinion…….I think that Christianity’s negating of the fourth commandment is a fatal flaw, I think it qualifies as “lawlessness”…..it is ignoring "the Torah of your God", as Hosea says above. Civilly speaking, you don’t have to break every law in the book to be deemed a criminal……choosing to break one of them will do….of course, this is also the point which James 2:10-11 is making concerning Torah. Continued…….see next post |
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34 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53789 | ||
Picking up from the previous post….. Speaking again in a civil vein……picture this (I admit this is wild)……but say I decided to bring a civil suit against my old pastor…….I gave his organization thousands of dollars and I want it back….Why? Because in his mission statement he said he was committed to teaching the truth of the Bible. He teaches that the Sabbath commandment has been made null and void because of the resurrection of Y’shua. I charge that he has not told me the truth, the Bible does not teach that the Sabbath has been abrogated or changed to another day, and I want my attorney (an atheist, let’s say) to prove that the pastor lied to me and I gave him money under false pretenses and I want it back. With my unbiased atheist attorney using only the Bible (sola scriptura) as evidence to make my case, would I win? If you were the attorney for the defense, how would you plead the pastor’s case? If the judge was an atheist and therefore having no doctrinal biases……how would he rule on the evidence and how would he have come to his decision? In conclusion, I seek righteousness in the Torah, for it defines righteousness, that which I choose…I seek sin in the Torah for it defines sin, that which I choose to avoid …Torah is the light to my path…..does Torah make me righteous?……No….can I claim any righteousness for myself without the Spirit of grace and the blood of Y’shua?….no way……since Y’shua nailed my rap sheet to the cross and the Holy Spirit is causing me to walk in the LORD’s decrees and laws (Eze 36:26-27)…I can take no personal credit….I can do nothing but praise the LORD for what He’s shown me and for what He’s done in me and for me. Singing the Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb……Bub |
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35 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53888 | ||
Hi..... I'm about to get a reply off to "reformed John" which pretty much responds to your concerns as well.....so consider it my reply to you also....ok? Singing the Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb....Bub |
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36 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53890 | ||
Dear John, Thanks for your input, I will address the points that you made. First of all, we need to examine the definition that you gave for how Paul defined “law”, you said, “The term "law" means anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command.” This sounds like a dictionary definition, is that so? If that was Paul’s working definition, which it very well could have been, then the below passages make perfect sense…..he could very well have been talking about commonly known customs or commands which were popularly held…… i.e. those of the Pharisees etc. Read all of the below statements and insert “the customs and commands as defined by popular usage” in the place of “law”. These statements make perfect sense in that context. “The Law is not of faith” “I am dead to the Law” “We are delivered from the Law” “Messiah is the end of the Law for righteousness” “If you are led of the Spirit, you are not under the Law” “By deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified” “The Law brings wrath” Messiah “abolished in his flesh….the commandments” “A man is not justified by observing the Law but by faith in Y’shua Mashiach.” However, what is the most popular Christian take on the word “law”? It is the “law” that the LORD gave to Moses and it is not for Christians; they insert that concept into the above passages. Agreed so far? The Hebrew word unfortunately translated as “law” is, of course, “Torah” (8451). Look it up….it in no way, shape, manner, or form means what Christians purport it to mean. It means “teaching” or “instruction”. It is from the Hebrew root word “yarah” (3384), meaning “teach, aiming a finger at”. Therefore “Torah” is a teaching which points us in the right direction……and since it is the LORD who is doing the teaching, it is the LORD’s Torah…..not Moses’; the “law of Moses” is the teaching that the LORD gave to Moses to pass on to Israel. Is this what Christians so vehemently rail against…..is this what they protest that they are not under and if you say they are you are a written off as legalist and a Judaizer? They are railing against what they perceive the Torah to be, not against what it really is. Go back to the above listed passages…..insert “the LORD’s teaching” in the place of “law”…….do they make sense? Do you want your theology to be based upon bad mouthing the teachings of the LORD? Yet, that is what Christians are doing when they use these passages to “prove” that the Torah is not for Christians. They are in reality saying “The way that the LORD has instructed His people to go is not for us.” Continued……see next posting |
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37 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53892 | ||
Continued from above: Do the teachings of the LORD (Torah) ever become obsolete? If so, then LORD is obsolete. Are they on the cafeteria plan where you can just pick the ones you like and leave the rest? Were the teachings weak, faulty and too difficult and had to be replaced?…..if so then the LORD is weak, faulty and He expects way too much. Frankly, I think that speaking against the LORD’s teachings (Torah) is blasphemy and refusing to live by any or all of them is presumptuous sin which is defined as wickedness. Look at your statement, “. Regenerated people (saints) have two natures, one carnal and the other spiritual. The carnal (old man) is a slave to sin. The spiritual man a slave to righteousness (new creature). We are to consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. In other words, because our righteousness is by faith and not by works. Therefore (in Christ) we have an imputed righteousness and the keeping of the law was "fullfiled" by Him.” For one thing, since you chose to use the word “saints”, look at how Rev 14:12 defines “saints”…..”the saints…obey God's commandments AND remain faithful to Y’shua.” Where do you find God’s commandments? Hmmmmmm? How many of them are operative for these saints? Are the regenerated “saints” of which you speak obeying the commandments of God (works)…..or is it faith in Jesus only that qualifies them for sainthood? Notice the word “AND” in 14:12,…..it is not “either/or”. Now analyze your statement, “Therefore (in Christ) we have an imputed righteousness and the keeping of the law was "fullfiled" by Him.” (I’m assuming that you mean the same as that popular Christian teaching, “We don’t have to do the Torah because Jesus did it for us.”) Again, put the words “the teachings of the LORD” in place of “law”. What then does your statement mean? What actually does Y’shua’s claim that He came to fulfill the Torah mean? If you will look up the word “fulfill”, you’ll see it means to fill in a hole. Therefore, what did Y’shua do in coming to fulfill the Torah? He came to further expounded upon the LORD’s teachings to correct a lot of misunderstandings and misapplications, i.e. to fill In the holes. Now, Christianity isn’t just misapplying Torah….she’s completely thrown it out….in which case she’s even worse than a Pharisee. As for your closing question, “Do you believe that keeping the Torah contributes in any way to "justification"?” Well let’s see: Ro 2:13 “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Ja 2:24 “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” MT 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (I’m assuming that the Torah [teaching] of the Father is the expression of His will; please correct me if I’m wrong.) My answer to your question is thereby a definite “you betcha!”. Singing the Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb…….Bub |
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38 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53899 | ||
Dear Steve………… You just don’t get it do you??????????? Torah (translated “law”) means “teaching”…..it can be anybody’s teaching unless it is clear through the examination of the context whose teachings are being referred to….are you with me so far, Steve? When Paul is speaking NEGATIVELY about the “law”…….is it conceivable that he was speaking of the teachings of his LORD? God forbid! My point was, he must have been referring to someone else’s teaching when he was speaking AGAINST the “law” for he surely would not speak against a “thus saith the LORD”. I apologize for having poor communication skills. Singing the song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb……..Bub |
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39 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53901 | ||
Dear Steve……. Before I get into your message with both feet…..can you clarify a point for me? You said that Heb 10:26-29 is addressing “Jews who have the Gospel, and are now wavering…on the verge of abandoning Jesus for the Law.” I’m not seeing that, help me out, please. As far as the “Gospel” which you mentioned above….is that the same as the “Gospel” which is mentioned in Heb 4:2 and 4:6? Thanks a lot, Steve, Still singing…………..Bub |
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40 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53994 | ||
Dear Tim…… I totally concur with what you had to say………my battle is with the popular view that we do not have to live Torah………except for the parts we like…..we get to choose what’s in and what’s out. I will focus my point on only one element, the Sabbath commandment, for the purpose of keeping the discourse simple, for one thing, and because it is the most glaring example of picking and choosing……who decided that the Sabbath is optional? You said we obey because we are saved…….this is absolutely the truth……but the common Christian mantra is that we don’t have to keep the Sabbath because we’re saved as opposed to saying, and practicing, we keep the Sabbath because we’re saved. Do we keep the Sabbath to be saved or justified? NO!!!!!!! That would be false motivation……I think Y’shua was touching on this when He said, “you are neither hot nor cold”. In other words, if you’re not obeying with enthusiastic whole heartedness, be real and don’t do it at all……that is a more honest position than half heartedly going through the motions. This, I also think, is what was going on when the LORD said, “I hate your Sabbaths…..”. If you are doing any commandment on a superficial level forget it…….it is not righteousness, it does not please the LORD. If one enthusiastically loves the LORD and acknowledges His words with enthusiasm…..he will keep the commandments with enthusiasm from the heart. We don’t do them to get brownie points or as fire insurance……we do them because “Father knows best”. Israel had a huge problem with this……they were constantly doing what was right in their own eyes (I see Christians as doing the same with the Sabbath, xmas and easter, etc….these are Roman catholic teachings, not the LORD’s…..the reformation stopped short of total reform, but that’s another tangent.) ……there was no problem with the Old Covenant or the Torah (teachings), that would indicate that the LORD messed up and had to rethink things. The problem was people…….they had to change…..and the LORD most graciously, through the Messiah and the Holy Spirit’s ministry of the New Covenant gave them that opportunity. Does the New Covenant negate any of the teachings……NO. The teachings (Torah) are the same…..we are different. Are we on the same page? Thank you for jumping in with the voice of reason……this discussion has gone off on wild unfruitful tangents. Singing the Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb……Bub P.S. I just read your post on the ending of Mark…..this is evidence, to me, that the NT was not considered “Holy Scripture”…….the NT writings were not meticulously preserved and recopied, as were the OT…….as copies were made it seems someone felt free to add on to Mark, who knows who?…..who knows how much editing went on as all of these NT documents were passed around?…..without the original documents we have no clue…..but we know for sure from Mark that it happened, we just don’t know where and how much. I thank the LORD that He specifically warned not to mess with the Revelation, I can view that with full confidence…..I’m sure it was honored as prophesy, and not a communiqué or commentary, and thereby preserved with integrity. |
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