Results 281 - 300 of 559
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Results from: Notes Author: Wild Olive Shoot Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
281 | Why do people like to accuse me? | Luke 6:37 | Wild Olive Shoot | 188938 | ||
Dear Vincent, Sounds like you may be a bit disgruntled over a traffic incident… In answer to your response, hear this, or rather read this: We all stand guilty before God without Christ. So guilty unto proven innocent as you proclaim, is correct in a far as you are guilty until your faith is in Christ and His atonement. Even then your are still guilty, but pardoned by a gracious God. You may have to stand before “A” judge, but he or she is not “THE” judge. If you think you are going to hell over a traffic violation, then your faith is surely not resting upon Jesus Christ my friend. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 1Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. So quit lashing out and complaining. Make your appearance in court; uphold your responsibility as a citizen and more importantly as a Christian. Stand in His grace, WOS |
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282 | help | Luke 11:2 | Wild Olive Shoot | 149326 | ||
I'm sorry but I have to offer my two cents on this. Doc, I must say, with all due respect, the manner in which you wordsmith is twisting and confusing. Your wrote: Regarding John 10 and the sheep hearing the voice of the Shepherd: This discourse is about salvation. It has nothing to say about "listening for God," nor is it establishing a normative practice for believers. I disagree with you here. It speaks of salvation yes, but it also speaks to the sovereignty of God and our response to that. It speaks of both divine sovereignty in the shepherd's call and our, “mans”, response, in hearing, knowing and the following by the sheep. It also speaks of discernment, since there are more voices calling to us than just our own shepherd's, we must be able to recognize. Following Jesus means refusing to follow others who are claiming to be shepherds. Jesus' sheep will actually run away from strangers. You wrote: "I for one am not going to limit God to how he can speak to me." I would submit, very humbly and very respectfully, ma'am, that you do limit Him. If you believe that the Scripture is not sufficient for your every need and that it is inadequate to stir the deepest delight and joy in your heart, then you are limiting God because you are not taking Him at His Word. Since God is sovereign and omnipotent He can not be limited in anything He chooses to do and that would include how He choose to identify Himself to us, whether it be in His word or in His ability to communicate otherwise. He does as He pleases. Don't rationalize His omnipotence and limit it to Scripture. You then followed that up with: Also, let me add that those who have a high view of the Scriptures are not limiting God. God has, rather, limited Himself. He is the One Who has chosen to use this vehicle to communicate to His own. Throughout history God has used many vehicles to convey his word. He spoke directly to some. In other cases He utilized the power of miracles. Sometimes His voice was a gentle whisper, other times it was a violent wind. His angels have communicated His word to us through burning bushes, the mouth of a donkey, in dreams and in revelations. And yes, the things of nature “reveal” God to us, but in order for us to recognize, they must speak to us. It may not be verbally, but rather spiritually. You say: God forbids anyone from removing or adding to His Word. Show me in His word where God tells us that is all we get? I say ask, seek and find. You also wrote: You also keep saying that God speaks in prayer. Prayer is speaking to God. It is offering thanksgiving, praise, adoration, and making supplication. Is there a Scripture that you use to derive a different meaning? Yes, prayer is speaking to God. But God answers prayers. God speaks to us in response to prayer. Now primarily, that is through the Bible, but He also speaks to our conscience by way of the Holy Spirit. It all comes down to being able to recognize His voice when He does speak. Balaam didn’t realize God was trying to communicate with him until the Lord opened his eyes. Maybe we all need to open our eyes, or rather, ask the Lord to open our eyes and we could see more clearly just how He communicates with his. (Numbers 22:28-34) Samuel heard the word of God but didn’t realize it until Eli had instructed him. (1Sam.3:1-10) Personally, God has never spoken to me, in a manner in which I could say for sure, yes that was God’s voice, but I do recognize events in which I believe He is communicating, one way or another through His Holy Spirit. He has also spoken to me through His word. However, I don’t limit His ability to communicate on any basis. How God chooses to speak to another, that is His choice and you or I have nothing to say about it. And concerning your follow up: PS Following are a few quotes that demonstrate the discomfort I have with experiences like you describe. What these folks talk about is substantively no different. If we allow for these self-validating, mystical experiences, then it opens the door for many other errors! Scripture, God’s word, does give us the means in which to identify the nature of what you call “mystical experiences”. I’ll trust God’s words over yours or any mans as authority concerning how to identify the nature of the spirits. If we shut ourselves off to God and His speaking to us and our reactions to it, then we invite the unwanted in to our lives. That opens the door far wider for errors to enter in. What is the use of praying for direction and guidance if God in return does not answer? In expecting no answer, you ask to remain in a dark, ungodly world without a guiding light whatsoever. WOS |
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283 | help | Luke 11:2 | Wild Olive Shoot | 149377 | ||
Doc, I’m referring you to the following site. Including an excerpt in this post. http://www.gotquestions.org/God-still-speak.html Just to clarify, I don’t hold in low esteem the Word of God that He chose to reveal to us. What I do hold in low regard is the opinion that God does not communicate and speak to us outside His word. His very own word proves otherwise. “Finally, yes, God likely does sometimes speak audibly to people. It is highly doubtful, though, that this occurs as often as some people claim it does. Again, even in the Bible, God speaking audibly is the exception, not the ordinary. If anyone claims that God has spoken to them, always compare what is said with what the Bible says. If God were to speak today, His words would be in full agreement with what He has said in the Bible. God does not contradict Himself. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 proclaims, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” © Copyright 2002-2005 Got Questions Ministries. All Rights Reserved. www.gotquestions.org Does God still speak to us today? Don’t hinder others from opening their ears and hearts to God speaking to them. Rather point them in the direction of learning to distinguish the voice of God from other voices that call out to them. Encourage and uplift others. Christ won us the opportunity to approach God on a personal level. The veil was torn. We have the ability to communicate with God and He shows that when we do, He replies. God’s own words clearly show that yes He does communicate to us, through more than just His Word. We just need to be willing to hear. WOS |
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284 | help | Luke 11:2 | Wild Olive Shoot | 149419 | ||
And my prayer is that God speaks to all, everyone of us, through His Word or otherwise. May He open our eyes, our ears, our minds and hearts so that we may be able to hear Him when He does speak. May He richly bless us all and keep us His. In Christ's name. WOS |
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285 | help | Luke 11:2 | Wild Olive Shoot | 149439 | ||
It's from Romans 11:11-24. Referenced by Paul when describing his vision of a "unified" church. We are the “wild olive shoots”. From the wild, uncultivated tree, we were grafted into the natural tree, because of our faith in Christ. The screen name helps to remind me that it is unity among Christ's faithful that should be sought. We should be united in our love for God, obedience to Christ and while respecting God's law, we look to Christ alone for our salvation. Our ethnic background and social status should be irrelevant as what matters is our faith. We are to be one in Christ. (Galatians 3:28,29) WOS |
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286 | Again on blaspheming the Holy Spirit? | Luke 12:10 | Wild Olive Shoot | 152009 | ||
How about unbelief? Spurgeon spoke on unbelief as the only sin for which there is no atonement for. “And now to close this point—for I have been already too long—let me remark that you will observe the heinous nature of unbelief in this—that it is the damning sin. There is one sin for which Christ never died; it is the sin against the Holy Ghost. There is one other sin for which Christ never made atonement. Mention every crime in the calendar of evil, and I will show you persons who have found forgiveness for it. But ask me whether the man who died in unbelief can be saved, and I reply there is no atonement for that man. There is an atonement made for the unbelief of a Christian, because it is temporary; but the final unbelief—the unbelief with which men die—never was atoned for. You may turn over this whole Book, and you will find that there is no atonement for the man who died in unbelief; there is no mercy for him. Had he been guilty of every other sin, if he had but believed, he would have been pardoned; but this is the damning exception—he had no faith. Devils seize him! O fiends of the pit, drag him downward to his doom! He is faithless and unbelieving, and such are the tenants for whom hell was built. It is their portion, their prison, they are the chief prisoners, the fetters are marked with their names, and for ever shall they know that, "he that believeth not shall be damned." Spurgeon, Charles. "The Sin of Unbelief." The New Park Street Pulpit. Blue Letter Bible. 18 Apr 2001. 5 Jun 2005. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/charles_spurgeon/sermons/0003.html I would recommend for anyone to read the sermon in its entirety. WOS. |
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287 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166416 | ||
I appreciate the comment that God is training our will as it seems to correlate with progressive sanctification that you and Doc have pointed out. The question as to our submissive or suppressed will is from an attempt to understand better how both our human will and God’s divine will factor into the salvation process and to what extent they are allowed to coexist. Our salvation rests unreservedly with God. But we have a responsibility, which is to acknowledge it. Can we acknowledge God’s grace, His mercy, while acting on our own will, within our human nature? Like you pointed out, with your reference to Eph 4:24, we are told to put on the new self, and Eph 4:30,31 points out we are instructed not to grieve the Spirit and to put away those things that would. It seems we have a responsibility to God after He calls us to be His. So the old and new cohabitate, both natures with their own wills, and it doesn’t seem that both act in unison but the opposite. Depending on our desires, motives, one will does poke through at any given time, dictating our actions so that one must either be suppressed or submissive to the other. For our will to be suppressed is indicative that it is against our will to act in a Godly fashion. To be submissive to God’s will, yielding to it, stays with the concept of retaining a free will by freely letting the Spirit work us. (To be clear, I am speaking of the regenerate and not the reprobate when discussing this) Spurgeon wrote: “We are not saved against our will; nor again, mark you, is the will taken away; for God does not come and convert the intelligent free-agent into a machine. When he turns the slave into a child, it is not by plucking out of him the will which he possesses. We are as free under grace as ever we were under sin; nay, we were slaves when we were under sin, and when the Son makes us free we are free indeed, and we are never free before.” … “But we do hold and teach that though the will of man is not ignored, and men are not saved against their wills, that the work of the Spirit, which is the effect of the will of God, is to change the human will, and so make men willing in the day of God's power, working in them to will to do of his own good pleasure.” I spoke of Christ while praying in Gethsemane for a few reasons. We get a real picture of Christ’s human nature, and what it may have desired. His divine nature and will eagerly wanted His work to be carried out, and that meant going to the cross, but humanly, His desire was to have the cup pass from Him, so strong a desire that it took nothing less than an angel from Heaven to comfort Him. I believe Scripture is clear, in that Christ was tempted in everyway that we are and I agree with your comment, that they were likely stronger than what we could imagine. But Christ did not have a sinful nature. Being divine in nature, He never needed a calling and to be responsive to it since He was in His very person God. When He stated that God’s will be done and not His own, it was from His human perspective that he stated those words but nonetheless, from an uncorrupted nature. Jonathan Edwards wrote: “Nothing can induce or invite the mind to will or act any thing, any further than it is perceived, or is some way or other in the mind’s view; for what is wholly unperceived and perfectly out of the mind’s view, cannot affect the mind at all. It is most evident, that nothing is in the mind, or reaches it, or takes any hold of it, any otherwise than as it is perceived or thought of.” Being unfallen, uncorrupt and sinless, and God by nature, Christ did not perceive and ultimately act upon a sinful mind’s view, or maybe more aptly put, sinning and moving against God’s will wasn’t an option on many levels. We in contrast, have that old corrupted, vile, despicable nature to continually deal with until Glory comes. God calls us to be His and then makes it so. He makes us new, changing our hearts, our desire so that our will submits to His. Maybe our yielding to God’s will, the Spirit actually does suppress our old nature, but it is our submissiveness that is the catalyst. In that I can see your point that we are in essence, the switchman, throwing it from spirit to flesh or I think what my mind has formed an opinion of is not necessarily an on / off switch, but a “dimming” switch. Once God claims us as his, I don’t think He will let us fully flip it off, but we can dim it somewhat as God ultimately controls our destiny. I thank you for your input. I hope I was able to verbalize my opinion in a somewhat comprehensive manner. Sometimes it’s hard to get the thoughts straight in my own mind, let alone trying to convey them to another, without mixing them up and inadvertently leading to them being misconstrued by others. I was hoping maybe that rambling thing wasn’t contagious but it just might be. Sometimes being succinct just isn’t a viable option. Thank you Brother. WOS |
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288 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166532 | ||
Dear Mark, First of all, my comment on rambling was only in jest and I hope you recognized it as such. I’m glad you have invited me along for the ride as you work out your beliefs on the subject. I find it odd, that I see so many similarities initially concerning our thought processes, but somehow we have reached slightly different conclusions. Where you, if having to choose, lean toward suppression, I would lean toward submissiveness. Just for the sake of clarification, let me state that the terms I applied as originally presented were not intended to push the subject into a psychiatric spin. It was merely my attempt and maybe a poor one, to identify as appropriately as I could, what actually takes place when regeneration is enacted upon us and subsequently our response and progression. As you aptly concluded, God’s will can never be suppressed nor can it be submissive to man’s will. But concerning the regenerate, that appears not even to be an option. Ultimately our will is either suppressed by or submissive to God’s. Once predestined by God, the choice is no longer ours is it? His will progresses while ours, in logically deducing, has to react in some fashion accordingly. We can’t reject, that places us above God’s sovereignty to say that He called us but we choose not come. We can’t accept initially, because up to that point just prior to regeneration, the agent acting upon our will is in fact immoral or we are void of a moral agent. So I see two options remaining, be suppressed by or submissive to the will of God. I see the manner of regeneration happening in an instant and arguably unnoticed at the onset. I see our wills being suppressed by God for an instant to allow our hearts to be renewed, because I don’t believe we would let it happen, given an option. From that moment forward, I see our wills as being submissive to God’s because His Spirit is now the acting moral agent on our heart. Our hearts are acted upon by the only moral agent capable of directing our hearts to effect changes in our desires and motives to coincide with those of God. These new motives direct our thoughts, our minds and lead us into a progression toward Christ. We are now freely able to choose that which God desires while retaining what bit of our old nature that we do. As both you and Doc have stated, our hearts are central, our very essence. From our inner being, one would have to surmise our outer actions are predicated. A heart void of God, or unchanged by God cannot produce moral thoughts and ultimately actions in tune with God’s will and desire. I’ll go as far as to say that it seems to be against our very nature to even freely acknowledge and accept a Savior until God makes it so. So I tend to agree with you concerning suppression, but only at the onset. We then freely submit to God’s will which also enables us to suppress our old nature but not entirely. I did not want to imply in any way that God’s will, or God’s Spirit indwelling the regenerate, could be suppressed by or even submissive to our nature or will. God forbid it and I praise Him that the enacting of His will and our submitting to it is truly a one-way street. It’s a gift of His grace and mercy upon us. In all, I can properly concede to the fact that this is a mystery in which God has not revealed to us for His own reason. However, I feel I have a responsibility to fully explore the Word of God and let His Word inform of that. Until I reach a point of being stagnant on a subject, I feel I need to continue. Currently, concerning this subject, I still feel I’m progressing somewhat to a better understanding. Also please understand, when I originally presented this subject, it was only to further explore it for my own understanding. It is surely not a hang up with me. Thank you Mark for sharing and please continue to do so. WOS |
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289 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166533 | ||
Dear Doc, I’m surely with you on the complexities on regeneration. Just to reassure you of my intent; I’m not desirous to the point of unraveling a mystery or positively identifying the process, just simply to better understand God’s enacting upon us and our subsequent response. I’ll do well to accept Christ for His words: John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. I think the reality of it all is that we get a new nature, a new heart. God becomes our moral agent of which we either were lacking, or were comprised of the opposite at the moment of being born again. I’m trying to understand God’s initial enacting upon us contrasted to our response. As you pointed out, “Progressive sanctification is, indeed, a work of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, there is a "funny" sort of tension in the Scripture here: it is also a work of our own.” What is it that makes us responsive at the onset? It’s understandable to me, that God first must impose Himself upon our will, our heart, our being, and that prior to, we are essentially void of any motives and desires to act within His will. We gain that at the moment of regeneration. Then, we face the battle of persevering with our new nature battling our old but we make the fight with assistance, because without it, we fail. There has to be an action that sets all of this in motion. I see God momentarily suppressing our will to eradicate resistance, and then once complete, letting our desires be changed by what we now have, the Holy Spirit acting upon our hearts changing our desires, thoughts and motives so we can then freely choose according to God’s will. Becoming submissive to His will while progressing forward. I think Edwards tied all of this together, the heart and the mind with his explanation of moral necessity in conjunction with a moral agent. From the heart, all motives are formed, all desires are determined and all emotions are engaged. From those our thoughts are guided from one course to another. From our thoughts, our mind’s view, we outwardly act demonstrating to all the very essence of our hearts. I believe they all branch together in some manner and therefore have a common root. That common root is the heart and the moral agent acting upon it, God. I don’t see you side-stepping the question. It’s hard to grab hold of and place into a proper perspective. I see myself swaying from thought to thought simply because I am trying to articulate my thoughts into type and the more I ponder this, the harder I find it to explain. Also for my own benefit, I’ll refrain from conversing on topics off the subject on this particular thread, since this does in fact lead to many other aspects, if only for right now, until I can feel my way through comfortably enough to understand fully how I should be seeing it. I hope you and Mark understand and grant me that small concession. But in no respect do I wish to imply for you to not share your thoughts with me or anything of that nature, just don’t be expecting a quick reply as I consider what you express. I think what seems to be the hardest for me right now, is attaching these thoughts with scripture and doing so correctly to see if they work out. Until I can accomplish that, I think I’m debating with myself more than anything. Isn’t that the norm. Bear with me friend. Thanks Brother, WOS |
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290 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166596 | ||
Mark, For clarity, number 1 is clear to me. Number 3, I’m agreeable that it is not an option. Number 2 is slightly misrepresented from the intent of my original post. If 1 is true, 2 cannot be an option as it is stated, however, I was interested in what takes place immediately following number 1 with regard to our will but not in the act of salvation directly, but simply acting in response to that. I have more than likely phrased it somewhat ambiguously and I apologize for that. My question, and surely it has been difficult to stay on track, concerns how our will is further acted upon following regeneration as to whether or not we continue in a submissive or suppressed state, to stay with my original terms, because seemingly it is one or the other at the time of regeneration as I attempted to explain in an earlier post. What is the process behind our initial response concerning our will as compared to our subsequent responsiveness concerning our will? Does that help to place things into a more proper point of view? WOS |
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291 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166598 | ||
Dear Doc, Concerning submission and suppression, I didn’t intend to imply that this is necessarily something we do to ourselves or something God does do man. In the terms relevant to my inquiry, and I’m sure I didn’t lay it out quite as clear as I would have liked to, I was looking for our state of responsiveness at and after regeneration and how the moral agent plays out it’s role to our role, or rather responsibility, in acting upon our will. Probably still not clear in all respects and maybe I can’t properly convey them at this time. If I can’t the best thing may be to take a moment or two to recollect my thoughts and better present them. In any event, I’m looking at this relevant to the redeemed and I did not intend to push it into the context of obedience, at least not yet. I seem to be more interested in our state at, and immediately following, regeneration as part of the salvation process and ultimately imagine that the desire behind obedience will stem from that. WOS |
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292 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166599 | ||
Mark, “And to this you include that we are looking at the state of a believer after the process of regeneration is completed? Is that correct?” At the moment of and directly thereafter, yes. WOS |
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293 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 166692 | ||
Fully understand, Yes. 1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. WOS |
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294 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 167095 | ||
Brother Mark, After contemplating this for some time, I must say, it seems to get more confusing the more one tries to understand. We know God is the “mechanism” behind regeneration and our response is in faith. I believe Scripture is clear on those two points. The intricacies however, though maybe important, aren’t necessary for us to identify and therefore aren’t spelled out to us in specific terms. John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Here is what I can come up with concerning the regenerate and their will at and after regeneration. This was not an exhaustive look and my points mentioned below are only to help in answering my original thoughts: (We are predestined to be called): Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (We are regenerated by wholly an act of God with no assistance from ourselves): Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Because prior to regeneration we lack any moral agent enabling us to desire anything from God): Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (We receive a new nature): Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (With this new nature we are free to believe the Gospel): 1 John 5:1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (We receive faith, upon regeneration, a gift from God): 1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (Faith is our response and with that faith, we freely desire God’s will): John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. I agree, I see no forceful suppression by God on the regenerate. I see a new nature given that was not previously an occupant within us. To paraphrase Hendryx, Grace makes us willing to respond. As our hearts are changed or made anew, we respond in faith. God enables our will, forgoing suppression, and acts on it in such a way that causes us to willfully yield. We are responsive in as far as we willingly turn to faith in Christ in which previously, this desire did not exist within us and therefore we were unable. A new nature is given, therefore, suppression is not necessarily a factor since our minds, wills and hearts now are fully able, and desirous of, submitting to God, in faith. “God disarms the opposition of the human heart, subduing the hostility of the carnal mind, and with irresistible power (John 6:37, 63-65), draws His chosen ones to Christ.” – John Hendryx All of that to say, I agree with what you have posted and don’t believe I could have conveyed it as accurately as you have. Thanks Mark (and Doc) for helping me to work my way through these thoughts. Matthew 19:25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. WOS |
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295 | Submissive or Suppressed Wills | Luke 22:42 | Wild Olive Shoot | 167235 | ||
Brother Mark, If by consent you imply agreeable to or to show willingness, then yes I can feel comfortable with those terms but not necessarily pertaining to salvation, however, if the implication is one of granting permission, most assuredly no, pertaining to salvation or regeneration. I was more simply implying that we are responsive to regeneration, driven by an act of God that makes us now able to respond positively where as prior to, we were unwilling or arguably more appropriately, unable, to respond. The way in which God fully acts upon us however, I have moved away from and not tried to detail any further and would not want to now, as I don't believe Scripture has revealed in full the intricacies of that action. Consenting to salvation was not meant to be implied in general terms, rather responsiveness to regeneration and the influence thereof. WOS |
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296 | luke 23:34 | Luke 23:34 | Wild Olive Shoot | 170660 | ||
ebrain, You made the comment: “Jesus is asking for forgivness for the ones who were killing Him, not however the Jewish Leaders, who knew full well what they were doing.” Did all of them really, truly know? Would they, even the Jewish leaders, have really crucified the Messiah if they had known? The Messiah was their only hope and they knew that. So would they have knowingly put Him to death? 1Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Acts 3:17,18: 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 1Titus 1:13,14: 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. Albert Barnes shows the following in commentary on Acts 3:17: “That through ignorance ...Peter does not mean to affirm that they were innocent in having put him to death, for he had just proved the contrary, and he immediately proceeds to exhort them to repentance. But he means to say that their offence was mitigated by the fact that they were ignorant that he was the Messiah. The same thing the Saviour himself affirmed when dying, Luk_23:34; “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Compare Act_13:27; 1Co_2:8. The same thing the apostle Paul affirmed in relation to himself, as one of the reasons why he obtained pardon from the enormous crime of persecution, 1Ti_1:13. In cases like these, though crime might be mitigated, yet it was not taken entirely away. They were guilty of demanding that a man should be put to death who was declared innocent; they were urged on with ungovernable fury; they did it from contempt and malice; and the crime of murder remained, though they were ignorant that he was the Messiah. It is plainly implied that if they had put him to death knowing that he was the Messiah, and as the Messiah, there would have been no forgiveness. Compare Heb_10:26-29. Ignorance, therefore, is a circumstance which must always be taken into view in an estimate of crime. It is at the same time true that they had opportunity to know that he was the Messiah, but the mere fact that they were ignorant of it was still a mitigating circumstance in the estimate of their crime. There can be no doubt that the mass of the people had no fixed belief that he was the Messiah.” “As did also your rulers - Compare 1Co_2:8, where the apostle says that none of the princes of this world knew the wisdom of the gospel, for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. It is certain that the leading scribes and Pharisees were urged on by the most ungovernable fury and rage to put Jesus to death, even when they had abundant opportunity to know his true character. This was particularly the case with the high priest. But yet it was true that they did not believe that he was the Messiah. Their minds had been prejudiced. They had expected a prince and a conqueror. All their views of the Messiah were different from the character which Jesus manifested. And though they might have known that he was the Messiah; though he had given abundant proof of the fact, yet it is clear that they did not believe it. It is not credible that they would have put to death one whom they really believed to be the Christ. He was the hope, the only hope of their nation; and they would not have dared to imbrue their hands in the blood of him whom they really believed to be the illustrious personage so long promised and expected by their fathers…” – Albert Barnes Wouldn’t the forgiveness spoken of by Christ still be dependant on their individual repentance? I wonder if any of the Jewish leaders were present during: Act 2:37-41: v37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? I think it could be said that their ignorance was of their own doing since Christ provided sufficient evidence of who He was but yet they still closed their eyes to it. But in closing their eyes to the evidence Christ placed before them, it caused them to still not believe in their heart that He was the Messiah. So in their hearts and minds, could they have believed that they were crucifying their Savior? Not that any of it is excusable, but do you think, as I wonder, if God could have “winked” at some of these very people as He did the Gentiles? Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Since we have now been given the command to repent, does God no longer overlook the truly ignorant? WOS |
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297 | luke 23:34 | Luke 23:34 | Wild Olive Shoot | 170830 | ||
Dear ebrain, I’ll do my best to answer what you have asked of me so long as I can. 1. Because many of those things that were being claimed against Him were not worthy of an answer for one. But also see that as rendered in Mark, he did give His answer when asked directly if He was the Christ. Mark 14:61-62: 61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 2. To reject this claim to be Messiah, and to not believe He was who He was, they had to account for this miracle some other way. The reckoned it to be of the devil for this was not their Messiah, or what they perceived the Messiah to be, that was their claim. 3a. It wasn’t about His love for Lazarus or the sisters. Christ knew full and well what he wanted to do. It was about the glory, the very glory shown by Him raising Lazarus from the dead. Christ’s love however knew that Lazarus would be among the living again. The lack of urgency was to further display His glory. 3b. This same verse shows why he was glad. “to the intent ye may believe;”. This was all to give an account of who He was and is. I’m not denying that sufficient evidence was put forth for anyone who seen to believe. What I’m stating is that for the Jewish leaders, the Pharisee’s, to adamantly insist that Jesus be put to death, they could not have in their hearts believed that He was their Savior, for whatever reason. Their hearts were hardened, their minds were closed, their eyes were blind. On their own accord, probably? Decreed by a Sovereign God, most definitely. To quote Gill: “These knew nothing of the wisdom of the Gospel, or the wise counsels of God concerning salvation by Christ; they knew not the Messiah when he came, nor the prophecies concerning him; the Jews and their rulers did what they did through ignorance, and fulfilled those things they knew nothing of.” Again, I’m in no way claiming that anyone is relinquished from the responsibility for what was done, all I’m saying is that what was done was in ignorance. I find it so very hard to believe, that had they truly known, had their hearts been proper, their minds correct and their eyes wide open to the undeniable evidence that Christ placed before them, they would have crucified their long awaited and hoped for Messiah. What God so said, was fulfilled, that we know. But the intricacies of His effective means, I think, are only known in part. When Christ asked for forgiveness, it was for those who knew not. That included all the ignorant. The Scripture posted in my last note shows the ignorance and to what levels it was escalated as well as the Apostle’s realization of what it was. Their minds had been prejudiced, and not only theirs, but as well so many more. A Multi-part question for you if I may Brother; Why is it that you have deduced that the forgiveness was specific and not necessarily for any who would repent and what do you suppose would be the catalyst for the leaders, who longed for their Messiah, to fully reject Him had they truly known and what would that result be? WOS |
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298 | luke 23:34 | Luke 23:34 | Wild Olive Shoot | 170886 | ||
Edwin, I thank you for your time and effort on this subject. I haven’t as of yet, but do plan to read the article you recommended and consider it as well. One thing for certain, I believe I’ll still find it hard to alter my position given the fact that the verses posted concerning the “ignorance” have yet to be reconciled with the subject claim. But know that I do plan to consider it all. To close, it seems apparent that Christ knew they wouldn’t believe and I think that is the key. Had there been belief, there could be no claim of ignorance on the part of the leaders from the Apostles. Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: John 10:24, 25: 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 1Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Acts 3:17,18: 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 1Titus 1:13,14: 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. Something that did peek my interest, when you stated: “I believe that what our Lord intended to convey was that He knew exactly what they had said about Him in private, behind closed doors, ie, that they knew very well that He was in fact the Christ. "You have (past tense) said that i am".” Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. I took the intent of the past tense here to be the immediate. Never did I consider that He was referring to anytime prior to this occasion of questioning. Thanks again Brother WOS |
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299 | Paul our pattern to follow, not Jesus? | Luke 24:46 | Wild Olive Shoot | 169621 | ||
Bereaniam, You wrote: “Jesus kept the law, all 613, wore tassels, was circumcised, tithed, agreed w/stoning disobedient children, etc.” Just a question, you claim Jesus kept all 613 laws, the Mitzvot: Did Jesus take a wife? Did Jesus touch lepers? Did Jesus touch the bodies of the dead? Can you explain those things in light of Jesus keeping all 613? I just named a few, but there may be more? As I see it, there are many related to marriage. WOS |
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300 | Paul our pattern to follow, not Jesus? | Luke 24:46 | Wild Olive Shoot | 169680 | ||
As I understand, and I am by no means an expert on Jewish law, but a couple of the 613 you refer to is to be fruitful and multiply based on Genesis 1:28 and as well to take a wife by kiddushin, the sacrament of marriage based on Deuteronomy 24:1. The Scripture you requested: Mark 1:40-42: 40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. 41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean. 42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed. Luke 8:49-55: 49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master. 50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole. 51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden. 52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. 53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. 54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. 55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. WOS |
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