Results 81 - 100 of 517
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Results from: Notes Author: Beja Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
81 | Satan has permission to rule | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 227489 | ||
PaulusSecundus, Do you really believe a view which has had more affirmation by historical christianity than any other position has not considered these verses? I have no intentions of trying to win an arguement. I don't think end times discussions ought to be debated on these forums. Discussing them for the sake of understanding other views, yes. Debating, no. Therefore I will not even defend the view in this post except to say that it would become us to not lightly dismiss such a well attested historical view before we even know what it teaches. In Christ, Beja |
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82 | Are we Under Mosiac Law? or Jesus Law? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 229005 | ||
Biblicalman, I find it interesting what some will say that we are under, while trying to deny that, in one sense, we are under the law. Let me qualify and say that with regards to a covenant determining our life and death and eternal destiny, those who are in Christ are NOT under the law. But with regards to what is right and wrong and what we still ought to do and not do, not for any reward, but because it is right and wrong, we are still under the law. Now I hear some say either one or two things. 1. We are to love God with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourselves. However, did Christ Himself not tell us that on these two commandments hinge all the law and the prophets? All other thins in scripture are fulfilled and simply situational applications of these two commands! How then can we say we are not to follow the law, but we are to follow these two commands? To suggest this is to create a false distinction between these and the rest of the law. We can not obey what you are calling the law of Christ, without obeying the entire law. Did transgress against any point of the Old Testament moral law, is to in some way transgress against loving God or loving our neighbor. 2. Some will say the only command we are under now is the command to love. Ironically they will often state these verses to defend their view. Rom 13:9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. However, if we think through this verse we will see something we didn't expect. If all the law is summed up in the statement to love your neighbor, then what we MEAN when we command to love your neighbor must therefore implicitely include all the law. When we tell somebody to love their neighbor we mean by that: Do not steal from them, but rather seek their good; do not bear false witness against them but speak the truth; do not covet their belongings, but rejoice in their prosperity; etc. Because in the one statement, "love your neighbor" all the law is summed up and contained. We can not on one hand say that all the commands of the law are summed up in this one thing, then on the other say this one thing does not imply all the commands. Let me recap lest people missunderstand my position. We are not under the law in terms of a covenant. But the moral law remains the Christian definition of right and wrong, and we are to follow it. Not as if it is the means of our attaining eternal life, but because it is right. In Christ, Beja |
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83 | Are we Under Mosiac Law? or Jesus Law? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 229006 | ||
I beg patience with all the many typo errors in my last post! Our church is having VBS this week and I am behind on sleep! If I need to clarify any of it, please ask. In Christ, Beja |
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84 | Does God hate the devil? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230052 | ||
Huldah, I'm not sure scripture agrees with you. Psa 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. In Christ, Beja |
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85 | What? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230160 | ||
I don't see how it is eliminating anything. Simply put, the "his" could refer to multiple words in the sentence grammatically speaking. Israel is one of the words in the sentence. I do not think that this is saying Christ is being redeemed by the Father. "King of Israel and his redeemer" is the phrase and I find it no twisting of the passage to suggest this is refering to the LORD as both king and redeemer of Israel. Lets substitute a sentence that is structurally identical. "Beja the instructor of Gaile, and her Father." We can see that such a structure is perfectly able to be utilized as I am suggesting, with both titles referring to the same person with two different relationships to the same person. A redeemer in everyday life was a near kin, but this was a type. Many times scripture refers to almighty God as a redeemer both of individuals and Israel. Psa 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer. And it is specifically Isaiah that depicts God almighty as Israel's redeemer. Isa 41:14 "Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel; I will help you," declares the LORD, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. Isa 43:14 Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice. Isa 48:17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, Who leads you in the way you should go. Isa 54:5 "For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth. Isa 63:16 For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us And Israel does not recognize us. You, O LORD, are our Father, Our Redeemer from of old is Your name. I hope this helps. In Christ, Beja |
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86 | What? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230162 | ||
ewq, Four things. 1. It seems we will just have to disagree. 2. For you to claim that my interpretation is grammatically imposible, I think the burden is on you to provide some rule of grammer to prove such a strong statment. You have provided none. 3. While my Hebrew is poor, my Greek isn't too bad and in the septuagint it is very blatantly translated as the king and the redeemer are in fact one person being stated twice. I am happy to let the Hebrew grammer correct any mistake the septuagint might have made but the burden is on you to prove such. 4. Why have you bothered to ask this question on the forum when you are obviously already convinced of your own answer? In Christ, Beja |
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87 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230163 | ||
ewq, Part of the Terms of Use which all participants in this forum agree to is that their posts will be consistent with the following creeds. "Postings must be consistent with Biblical Christian doctrine (Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, Chalcedonian Creed, and Canons of the Council of Orange)" This is actually a cut and paste from the Terms of Use. Here is a relevant section of the Nicene Creed: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. Now, you don't have to agree with this to participate on the forum, but by participating you are agreeing that your posts will not contradict such a confession. These are the terms of our hosts. I encourage you to familiarize yourself with these confessions (easily found online with a google search) because every time you log into this forum you are giving your consent to abide by these rules. In Christ, Beja |
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88 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230176 | ||
ewq, I would then ask you to explain these verses. You rightly quote that the Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, but scripture also affirms that the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. And yet Christ himself says that the Spirit is somebody OTHER than himself! Joh 14:16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; Joh 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you. So we have scripture affirming that the Spirit is both the spirit of Christ, and yet OTHER than Christ. How then can you say that the teaching that the Holy Spirit is seperate is "never taught by anyone in the bible nor the early church. It was inserted by others later and made official but it is not scriptural." It is scripture that affirms it! The Spirit is Christ's Spirit, it is the Father's Spirit, and yet He is distinct from both of them though no man can comprehend this glorious puzzle! Scripture affirms precisely and almost word for word what you deny and claim to be the invention of man! And what then? If it is in scripture what then of your objections? They evaporate. And you are left with the options of putting yourself under the word, or over it. In Christ, Beja |
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89 | What? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230177 | ||
ewq, So the rule of grammer that affirms your position is: because I say so. Noted and rejected. In Christ, Beja |
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90 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230180 | ||
ewq, You seem to have overlooked the verses I gave you stating that the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit is the Lord. I do not dispute that Christ received the Spirit from the Father. Other than this you have added no new point nor dealt with what I said in my post. I gave you scriptures stating clearly that the spirit is christ, and yet the spirit is OTHER than Christ. This is what you said scripture NEVER teaches. Any observant ready will notice: 1. Those points are fatal to your stance. 2. You are not responding/giving explination to the scriptures that make those points. Therefore, I leave this in the hands of the readers. In Christ, Beja |
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91 | What? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230181 | ||
ewq, You have given no grammatical rule, be it Hebrew, English, Greek, or Angelic to support your statement. In Christ, Beja |
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92 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230192 | ||
Holmes, Let me say that you are asking some very tuff questions that require a lot of thought. I've remained silent on your original questions for a reason. However, since you ask me specifically, I will share my thinking with your, but I ask any that read this post to realize that I'm sort of revealing a thought process more than a stance that I am of this moment ready to impose upon the consciences of another. 1. First, we must reject out of hand any notion that requires us to be able to grasp the depths of how the trinity can be. God never calls us to understand WHAT He is in depth, rather God wants us to understand WHO He is, his character. Jeremiah 9:23,24. 2. We must begin with what scripture calls us to as the means of being saved (the church membership question must follow second). Scripture places two requests upon us for salvation, though only one of them is the actually instrument of us receiving justification. These two things are repentance and faith. Faith contains two elements, one is head knowledge or belief, and the other is actually trusting upon Christ. These things are what we are called to in order to receive salvation. Now as we look more closely at Faith, we see that we are called to place our Faith in Christ, this involves both His person (who He is) and His work (substitutionary death on the cross.) Now the requirement for us to believe in the second part I assume I need not prove, the first though might be seen as both more questionable and less often stated. I offer this scripture to support it: Joh 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." I take Christ's saying "I am He" to be an affirmation of his being the God of the Old Testament. So we must place our trust in Christ and His work, but we must do so in Christ as God. So here is my application, there is some knowledge needed of the trinity in order to be saved, but it is a secondary knowledge. In other words, it is not believing in the trinity that saves you, but receiving Christ as God presupposes that we grasp that Christ is God, and that is one piece of the trinitarian puzzle. With regards to the Holy Spirit, I have no such scriptural evidence, and must assume that much can be not known with regards to the Spirit and one still be saved. 3. We must believe that salvation does in fact DO something with us in order to move to a right answer in this. We see Paul affirm: 1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. So our acknowledging Christ as "Lord" (again I take Lord to be a loaded term acknowledging diety) is something that the Spirit works in us. So the next principle I want to suggest is that our being in agreement on whom or what God is, is a Spirit produced state. Nobody who is saved, denies Christ, because the Spirit of God has wrought in us a heart that recognizes and acknowledge who Christ is (2 Cor 4:1-6). Here is how I apply this to your questions. Refer back again to John 8. We see the passage state: Joh 8:30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. Joh 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; So we see Christ speaking to those who in some sense were "believing in Him." However, as the scene progresses, and Christ begins to teach who he is, the Jews who in some sense believed began to stumble over what Christ actually claimed about them selves. And in this context Christ tells them the formerly quoted verse about their perishing should they not believe that "I am He." The scene ends with those Jews trying to stone Jesus. So we can rest assured that whatever John meant by "believing" earlier,they had not trusted upon Christ with saving Faith. So I take this principle: Though there are some truths about the trinity that a believer might not need to know, a truely converted mind will not reject them when properly taught those truths. In other words, -perhaps- I need not know that the Spirit is a eternal person of the divine trinity, but later when it is shown to me from the word of God I will not reject it. Now the foundation for asserting this lies not merely in the principle seen in John 8, but upon the fact that our "receiving" such things is a work of God. A natural man won't receive them, but a spiritual man will (1 Cor 2). So with a saved man, we will see them growing in truth as it is taught, but with a lost man we will see increasing rejection as the truth is explained to them. (More to follow in a second post, where I will actually give my answers.) In Christ, Beja |
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93 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230193 | ||
(Part 2, I think I replied these to the wrong post, but just pretend they are to the post where you asked me!) Answers to your questions based on the above thoughts: 1. Does a man need to believe in the trinity in order to be saved? Only insofar as it is involved in the gospel message. Though a saved man will receive the rest when it is shown to him by scriptural authority. For we are given a heart that humbles itself under scriptural truth by the spirit at our conversion. 2. Should this be a requisite to Church membership? We have no clear command but here is what I think is good in light of what I have said. a.) Nobody should be required to explain how the trinity should work. It should be limited to things like: Is Jesus God? Yes. Is the Holy Spirit God? No. Is Jesus the Father? No. Etc. b.) Rejection of the trinity should prevent Church Membership. My assumption here as a Baptist is regenerate church membership. c.) That being the case, why would we not check that they believe/accept the trinitarian doctrine prior to joining? I hope this helps, I stand ready to be corrected in my thinking here. I readily confess you ask questions I've not previously given a great deal of thought to. In Christ, Beja |
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94 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230194 | ||
Holmes, OH MY GOODNESS! In my fatigue I accidentally denied the diety of the Holy Spirit in that Last post! It ought to have read (Is the Holy Spirit God? YES!) Oh my my my, a thousand apologies! In Christ, a very sleepy Beja |
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95 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230212 | ||
Holmes, Let me try to restate in some points to tryu to clarify my answer on the murkey part. I won't apologize that I'm avoiding giving a dogmatic statment, what you are getting here is my best attempt to patch scripture together on this issue. 1.) I think denying the deity of Christ is fatal. 2.) I believe that when we are saved God grants us to receive certain truths about Him. You will not understand my answer unless you understand I work from a Calvinistic pressuposition. We only receive any saving truth in a saving way because God grants us to do so. I do not think that God grants us to "see the glory of God in the face of Christ" (2 Cor 4:1-6) and at the same time leaves us with a heart/mind that will reject trinitarian truth when shown from scripture. As salvation is start to finish entirely a work of God, even our willingness is His doing, we can not suggest a scenario of a partial Christian. I mean to say that whomever God converts, He also begins to work actual practical holiness into their lives, He keeps them in the faith until death, and many other things He does. We are not to imagine a scenario in which a man repents and trust Christs, is saved, and then chooses to live a worldly life from there onward; because the one whom God grants to receive Christ, He also grants lifelong repentance (1 John 5:18). In the same way, we are not to imagine a man who God grants to receive Christ, and then God does not grant him to believe the truth of the trinity when it is shown to him from scripture. 1Co 2:12-15 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. So here is what I "think" is right based on my beliefs. It seems that a man can be saved without a complete knowledge of the trinity, though I think he must realise that Christ is God. But a man rejecting the trinity reveals that he was converted to a God of his own imagination and was not truely born again. 3) I reject your suggestion that a simple yes or no will suffice to this question. I would not accept a scenario that leaves a supposidly saved man openly rejecting the doctrine of the trinity. Though I would accept a scenario of a born again Christian not yet having it fully explained to him. I will attempt to clarify if that doesn't make sense, but I will not attempt to simplify it. In Christ, Beja |
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96 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230216 | ||
Holmes, With regards to the Christ question you are going to have to clarify. In my ears you are saying contradictory remarks. They are acknowledging that Jesus is God yet not equal? You'd have to explain in what sense He is God and in what sense He is not equal. To me you are saying, lets begin with assuming there is a square circle. I can't get around the assumptions of the case in order to be able to answer you. With regards tot he Holy Spirit. I'm not going to give you a yes or no answer, because again, you are setting up what seems a false scenario. You are asking as if the person is trying to get a checklist down in order to receive a gift, and asking if this certain belief is on the check list. I'm telling you that very scenario is wrong. God grants us all things pertaining to salvation, and grants us the spirit to know what we have received. So what I am saying is that God does not give salvation without giving other things. Repentance, perseverance, the Holy Spirit, love for our brothers and sisters in Christ, and acceptance of certain key doctrines are all God's gifts to us, rather than a checklist we do to be saved. Let me try to answer concisely in these three things: 1.) The one thing needful to be saved is that we must be born again. 2.) The new birth gives us everything else. 3.) God never gives us just some of these things. A Christian will never be denied salvation "solely because he does not believe that the Holy Spirit is a seperate person." He will be denied salvation because he is a sinner guilty before an angry God, and has no mediator because he has not been granted the new birth that he may repent and trust to receive that mediator. If a man is born again purely from grace, he will then repent, believe, persevere, love, obey, and accept certain central truths. I will not give a yes or no answer to a question with faulty assumptions. Let me rephrase it into a question that I can give you a yes or no answer to. Will a born again man receive the teaching that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person of the glorious God head? Yes. Will a person who claims to be born again though in reality he is not born again, reveal himself to be such and still a naturally minded man when he rejects the doctrine of the trinity? Yes. That is my view. I think by this point, it should be clear what I believe. In Christ, Beja |
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97 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230217 | ||
A word about understanding the trinity, We need to realise when we expect people to receive the notion of the trinity, we don't expect very much understanding at all. I would never expect a new believer to use terms like co-equal, begotten not born, same substance, or any such thing. At the end of the day the witness of scripture just hits us with two things that baffle us. 1. The scripture speaks so strongly about the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that you would be absolutely ready to say that they are just the exact same person...yet you just can't because scripture speaks of them being truely distinct. 2. Scripture speaks so clearly of them being distinct people with their own distinct roles and actions that you are about ready to confess that they are three Gods...yet you can't, because so much scripture teaches that they are one. Our words, are an attempt to explain this baffling puzzle. We can NEVER expect a person to understand how this can be in order to be saved. We accept it only because we can't get away from it. It is like the two walls of the red sea that forces us to walk the dry path. Should we turn to the right and try to say that God is a single person, we are faced with the dialogues between the Father and the Son driving us to utter nonsense. We loose all ability to explain passages such as "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (Eph 1:3) Should we turn to the left hand and say that they are absolutely distinct persons and say they are not one, we are confronted with passages saying: 2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. Joh 14:9 Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Joh 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Scripture walls us in to speaking the way we do. God is one and God is three, I do not understand what I say but I violate scripture the moment I deny it. This then is what we look for in a Christian, not understanding, but an unwillingness to deny what scripture teaches. In Christ, Beja |
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98 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230220 | ||
Bradk, Amen. |
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99 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230223 | ||
Holmes, Forgive me if I am wrong, but i am beginning to suspect that the reason you keep pressing is because you already know exactly where you want to take the conversation should you get a simple yes or no answer, and my failure to treat the subject as simple is hindering you from your already predetermined course. However, I will discuse it further for now. I will assume that I need not dwell on the Holy Spirit side of the question since you did not bring that back up, but I will try to explain why your question with regards to Christ needs clarified. The verses you quoted in John is the very reason I asked for clarity, because Christ DID say that the Father was greater. But this does not answer the question I asked of you. In what sense? Are you saying that the Father has power that Christ does not have? Are you saying that the Father is of a different substance or make up which is of better quality than Christ? Or rather are you merely saying that the Father is greater than the Son in terms of position or authority? In other words, Christ and the Father can be equal in all things, yet have priority in their roles. One example would be my wife and I. I have no inherent superiority over my wife, but I am her superior with regards to the chain of command, with regards to authority. So I say again, you still must explain to me what you are suggesting. Are you saying that Christ is not the same thing that God is, or are you merely talking about a positional superiority? If you are saying that Christ is, in His essence, inferior to the Father, then I suggest that you are in fact saying that Christ is NOT God. In that case yes, your pressupostions are contradictions and I would tell that believer He is in fact denying the deity of Christ, and the clear testimony of scripture. If I were to say to you that Jesus is a creating being, the cheif of angels, and in all ways inferior to the Father, but don't worry, I do affirm that He is God...then I hope you would rather quickly call me on it and say to me, "No sir, you deny Christ as God in every way." If a person is suggesting that the Father has a certain preiminence in the Godhead, a certain priority in authority and glory and perhaps chief share in the initiatives and eternal purposes of God, then I would not at all say such a person is denying the deity of Christ. And in that sense it seems to me scriptural to suggest that the Father is greater, and I believe it is to this which Christ referred in your quoted passages. So yes, you still need to clarify but I hope I answered either scenario in this post. In Christ, Beja |
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100 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230230 | ||
Holmes, Yes. Unless I am misinformed (which I might be), I don't think any of the historical definitions of the trinity have any intention of denying differences in roles, functions, or authority in the midst of the trinity. In fact, these things are all further proofs of distinction within the trinity. The coequal is speaking with regards to the fact that they are all THE God and all the things that entails with regards to all the infinite perfections of God in power, beauty, holiness, etc. In Christ, Beja |
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