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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | "Two witnesses." When? Who? | Rev 11:3 | stokeyhk | 54785 | ||
FUTURE "7-year period we call The 70th Week of Daniel"? Daniel 9:27 says: "In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." Compare this with Hebrews 10:5-10. By this reasoning the "middle of the 'seven'" would be the year Jesus died-33 AD. Zechariah 13:7-9 says: "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered." Matthew 26:31 shows this is fulfilled in 33 AD. Further John the Baptist was 'God's messenger' of Malachi 3:1-5, harmonizing with Zechariah 13:9. Hence all being fulfilled before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD comes." (Malachi 4:5; Matthew 11:14) Notice the Bible links Jesus' coming with "the day of the Lord" and Philippians 2:12 shows this word "coming" is also translated "presence." So, again, the second fulfillment would be before the "day of the Lord." Its true that "the beast" is part of the Antichrist. However, doesn't the context show it to be Satan's global political system set up to "make war" with "those who obey God's commamdments"? (Revelation 12:17-13:2; 17:9-14; Daniel 7:2-8, 17, 23) Think of this: How could only TWO individuals 'torment all people who dwell on the earth'? (Revelation 11:10; 10:11) But certainly a class of people could do this. (John 8:17) Would a global political system be needed to stop 2 individuals? (Compare Revelation chapter 9.) |
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2 | "Two witnesses." When? Who? | Rev 11:3 | Morant61 | 54788 | ||
Greetings Stokeyhk! There are three distinct periods mentioned in Dan. 9:24-27. 1) Seven 'sevens' 2) Sixty-two 'sevens' 3) One 'seven' The first grouping of sevens refered to the time it would take from the order to rebuild the temple until it was actually completed. Many feel that this is a reference to the time between the second decree of Artaxerxes in 445 B.C. and the time the temple was completed in 396 B.C. - exactly 49 years or seven 'sevens'. The second period begins in 396 B.C. and ends with the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem in 32 A.D., after which Jesus was 'cut off' - exactly 434 years (after allowing for leap years, ect) just as Dan. 9:26 said. Note though, that the Messiah is 'cut off' at the end of the 49 plus 434 years. This leaves one 'seven' yet to be fufilled. The last seven has not yet been fulfilled. Notice that Dan. 9:26 indicates that much time may pass, the city and sanctuary are destroyed. Finally, the 'ruler of the people' will make a covenant for one 'seven' with Israel and in the middle of the 'seven' will cause offerings and sacrifice to cease - which means the temple must be rebuilt by then. So, I don't really see a connection between Heb. 10:5-10, since the 'he' in Dan. 9:27 is the ruler of the people, not God. Concerning your last question, - "how could two individuals torment all people?" - simply by preaching the truth to them and being untouchable because of God's protection! :-) Note: The numbers above come from John MacArthur's, "The Future of Israel: Daniel 9:20-12:13". It is a very interesting book and can be ordered from him. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | "Two witnesses." When? Who? | Rev 11:3 | stokeyhk | 54936 | ||
Its true, Tim, that there are three distinct periods in Daniel 9:24-27. They equal 70 weeks. When did the prophetic "seventy 'sevens'" begin? The prophecy says: "From the issuing of the decree [word, NIV, footnote] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem." (Daniel 9:25) By comparing Nehemiah 1:1-3 with Nehemiah 2:1-8 we can see that this happened in the "twentieth year of King Artaxerxes." When is the "twentieth year of King Artaxerxes"? You say: "445 B.C." However there is strong evidence that Xerxes died in 475 BC, Artaxerxes' first year began in 474 BC, and his "twentieth year" began in 455 BC. 1) Greek historian Thucydides, respected for his accuracy, says when disgraced Themistocles came to Persia, Xerxes was dead and Artaxerxes "had lately come to the throne." Historian Diodorus Siculus says Themistocles died when "Praxiergus was archon in Athens." He ruled in Athens in 470/471 BC. The reigns of Darius and Xerxes were dual or a coregency for a time. Herodotus suggests such. 2) Several Persian bas-reliefs show a coregency around the the time of the 490's. 3) Babylonian excavations reveal a palace for Xerxes completed in 496 BC. Historians are unanimous that the first year of Darius II ended in 423 BC. Several Babylonian business documents reveal Artaxerxes reign going beyond 41 years to a 51st year! So counting 483 (49 plus 434) years from 455 BC brings us to 29 AD, "until the Anointed One." Jesus was anointed by holy spirit at his baptism just after "the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar." (Isaiah 61:1, 2; Luke 3:1, 2, 21-23; 4:16-21) "After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing." (Daniel 9:26) So sometime after the 69 weeks Jesus would die. It turns out that it was 3.5 years later. "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." (Daniel 9:27) What "covenant" was 'confirmed'? Not the Law covenant which was terminated at Jesus' death. (Colossians 2:14; Galatians 3:13, 14) Galatians shows it was the Abrahamic covenant becoming a blessing for the "Gentiles." The conversion of Cornelius was quite some time after Pentecost 33 AD in Acts chapter 10, apparently about the year 36 AD at the end of the 70th week! 'Putting an end to sacrifice and offering' takes place "in the middle of the final 'seven'" or week. That would coincide with Hebrews 10:1-10 which says: "He sets aside the first [sacrifices and offerings according to the law] to establish the second [the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ]." "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city." (Daniel 9:24) Matthew 23:37-24:2 shows that the "house is left to you desolate." There's no need to include a break in this 70-week time period. There's no break between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks! If there was a break it wouldn't be a 70 week period. (Daniel 9:24) Notice, too, in verse 27, that the "he" is God who 'confirms the covenant' and 'puts an end to sacrifice' and fortells and allows "the PEOPLE of a ruler" to desolate the temple since the temple was abandoned in Jesus' day! (Daniel 9:26; Matthew 23:38) Stokeyhk. |
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4 | "Two witnesses." When? Who? | Rev 11:3 | Morant61 | 54945 | ||
Greetings Stokeyhk! Thanks for the response my friend! Our posts illustrate the difficulty of trying to pin down ancient dates! :-) MacArthur lists three possible starting dates for the seven 'sevens'. 1) The decree of Cyrus (Ezra 1:1-4 at about 536 B.C.) 2) The first decree of Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:11-26 about 458 B.C.) and 3) The second decree of Artaxerxes (Neh. 2:1 about 445 B.C. Of course, it all depends on whose dates one goes by! :-) Apparently we differ on the identity of the ruler in Dan. 9:27. I found a quote in a commentary that seems to touch on some of your positions, though I don't know if you are amillenial or not. I just included this for information, not accustation! :-) ************************************ "This covenant could not have been made or confirmed by Christ at His First Advent, as amillenarians teach, because: (a) His ministry did not last seven years, (b) His death did not stop sacrifices and offerings, (c) He did not set up “the abomination that causes desolation” (Matt. 24:15). Amillenarians suggest that Christ confirmed (in the sense of fulfilling) the Abrahamic Covenant but the Gospels give no indication He did that in His First Advent. As stated, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel at the beginning of the second half of the 70th “seven,” that is, it will be broken for three and one-half years. This is called “a time, times, and half a time” (Dan. 7:25; 12:7; Rev. 12:14). The fact that this is the same as the three and one-half years, which in turn are equated with 1,260 days (Rev. 11:3; 12:6) and with 42 months (Rev. 11:2; 13:5), means that in Jewish reckoning each month has 30 days and each year 360 days. This confirms the 360-day Jewish year used in the calculations in the chart, “The 483 Years in the Jewish and Gregorian Calendars” (near Dan. 9:26a). Since the events in the 69 sevens (vv. 24-26) were fulfilled literally, the 70th “seven,” yet unfulfilled, must likewise be fulfilled literally." Source: The Bible Knowledge Commentary on Dan. 9:27. **********************************************\ This quote does raise some interesting questions about your position. 1) Christ did not minister for seven years, so how could His ministry be the covenant referred to in Dan. 9:27? 2) Sacrifices did not cease at the death of Christ, but almost 40 years later. So, how could the death of Christ fit the middle of the week? 3) The destruction of the temple and abomination did not occur at the same time as the death of Christ, but almost 40 years later. So, how could the death of Christ be the middle of the 70th week? Just some questions for dicussion my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | "Two witnesses." When? Who? | Rev 11:3 | stokeyhk | 54950 | ||
First, Daniel says its Jersualem the city not the temple that would be restored. This was in the "twentieth year" of Artaxerxes. Nehemiah's concerned with the rebuilding of the city. (Nehemiah 2:5) The ruler in Daniel 9:26, 27 is Cestius Gallus whose army desolates the temple. He was permitted to do this by God as mentioned in Matthew 23:38 and Daniel 9:26, 27. (Luke 21:20) 1) Its true Christ didn't minister for 7 years. Daniel doesn't require him to. It mentions a 3.5 year ministry. 2) Its true sacrifices didn't cease to be offered by unbelieving Jews until 70 AD. However, this doesn't mean they had God's approval and further no faithful follower of Jesus did so. (Hebrews 10:12-14; 13:10-14) Just as the Law covenant was terminated at Jesus' death, so were the sacrifices. But this didn't mean the unbelieving Jews ceased to follow these arrangements, even as they continue to follow them partially today! But, clearly, it has no acceptance or validity before God. 3) Daniel doesn't mention the desolating of the temple as part of the events taking place during the 70th week, but rather as a consequence of them. Your commentary states: "The Gospels give no indication that He did that in his First Advent." Do you agree with that? Luke 1:54, 55, 67-75 seems to contradict that! (Galatians 3:16-18, 26-29) If we don't resort to philosophical arguments to evade the clear statements of truth in the Bible, we won't have difficulty pinning down ancient dates, but will be guided by Bible truth and put our trust in it first and foremost. (1 Thessalonians 5:21; 1 John 4:1) Stokeyhk. |
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6 | "Two witnesses." When? Who? | Rev 11:3 | Morant61 | 54967 | ||
Greetings Stokeyhk! Sorry about that, I meant to say the city, but I said the Temple! :-) Let me touch briefly on your numbered points! 1) Dan. 9:27 says that he will confirm a covenant for one 'seven', but from Dan. 9:26 it would appear that the Annointed on had already been cut off prior to the last 'seven'. 2) But, Dan. 9:26 says that this ruler will destroy the city and the temple, then he will make a covenant, and then he will cause the sacrifices to cease. If the "he" here is Christ, then He died, by dying He cause the sacrifices to cease, and then the city was destroyed 40 years later. That seems to mix up the sequence quite a bit. However, if the 'he' of Dan. 9:27 is the anti-christ, then the city is destroyed, later rebuilt, he makes a covenant with Israel for 7 years, and then in the middle sets up the Abomination. This would seem to fit the sequence of Dan. 9 better (IMHO)! :-) 3) This one seems pretty clear. Here are some representative translations of Dan. 9:27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." KJV "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." NASB "He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” NIV All of these seem to indicate that the Abmonination is part of the events which occur in the middle of the week. 4) Luke 1 and Gal. 3 never say that the Abrahamic covenant was fufilled by Christ during His first advent, but they say that God remembered His covenant. 5) I'm not sure what you were trying to say with your last paragraph my friend. To which philosphical argument were you referring? And, which Bible verse provides us with the B.C. date of Artaxerses rule? ;-) The dates that historians have guessed at our not Scripture! :-) This is an interesting discussion! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | "Two witnesses." When? Who? | Rev 11:3 | stokeyhk | 55018 | ||
Hi, Tim 1) Any breaks in the 70-week period would mean that its no longer a 70-week period. Its true the "Anointed One" is cut off SOMETIME "after the sixty-two 'sevens.'" As I mentioned before, this was 3.5 years after. This corresponds with "the middle of the week." (Daniel 9:27) 2) The purpose of the 70 weeks is mentioned in verse 24. There seems to be confusion about the identity of certain individuals in verses 26 and 27. I think I said that the "he" of verse 27 was God. But actually its the "Anointed One." Sorry for the confusion. Why can we say the "he" is Jesus? Well notice verse 26. "The PEOPLE of a ruler [General Titus] who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary." Why? Because their house was abandoned for rejecting and 'cutting off' the Messiah as mentioned. Who is "he" in verse 27? Is it "the ruler who will come," General Titus? Or, is it "the Anointed One, the ruler," Jesus? Let's reason on the matter. a) A 70-week period having no breaks would point to Jesus. (See Luke 1:67-75; Acts 3:25, 26; Galatians 3:8, 9, 14, 16, 26-29) The Messiah's coming would in fact confirm the Abrahamic covenant with "the many," the Jews. b) Remember the purpose of the 70 weeks as mentioned in verse 24: "To finish transgression." "To put an end to sin." "To atone for wickedness." "To bring in everlasting righteousness." "To seal up vision and prophecy." "To anoint the most holy." How were these things accomplished? By the destruction of the temple, the city, the interrupting of the offering of literal sacrifices by unbelieving Jews, by a covenant made with unbelieving Israel for 7 years by a pagan Roman General? Impossible! These things could only be accomplished by Jesus' death and resurrection. Jesus is the one who confirmed God's covenant with Abraham with the Jews for 7 years, 29-36 AD. He is the "seed" of Abraham, and it wasn't until Acts 10:37-48 that Gentiles began to benefit from Abraham's seed! (Galatians 3:16, 26-29) c) Its true General Titus' army destroyed the temple thereby preventing the unbelieving Jews from offering sacrifices there. Jesus said the "abomination [the Roman armies, Luke 21:20] that causes desolation" would come before the destruction of the temple. (Matthew 24:15-21) This "standing in the holy place" was in 66 AD, so was not "set up" in the "middle" of anything. The 'desolations that have been decreed' and "the end that is decreed" rule out any rebuilding of a physical temple on earth and such has been the case. Do the events of Daniel 9:26, 27 HAVE TO BE in sequence? 4) Daniel doesn't say the Abrahamic covenant is "fulfilled." Rather it is "confirmed." It isn't fulfilled until the end of the 1,000 years. (Revelation 20-22) 5) To philosophical arguments in some Bible dictionaries. The Bible doesn't follow calendars invented by men, such as the Gregorian or Julian calendars which didn't exist until after the Bible was completed. Obviously, then, the Bible wouldn't give BC or AD dates for anything. It states clearly the times: "the twentieth year" of Artaxerxes twice; "the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar"; the "seventy years" of desolation three times, etc. Astronomical dates are very accurate. Many of these historians are very quick to dismiss the Bible when it doesn't agree with their interpretation of matters. Which is better? To put our faith in human guesses and speculations or in the infallible word of God? Stokeyhk. |
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