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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | "Two witnesses." When? Who? | Rev 11:3 | Mommapbs | 136531 | ||
Greetings: CDBJ - I don't see this as a matter of "deception" The order of events that precede Christ's return as outlined in 2 Thess 1-5 is not what I was questioning here. IMO, it would be a mark of apostacy to declare that Christ is not coming. Fundamental Christianity has "identified" and taught that the harlot of Revelation is the Roman Church. This. I believe, is because they associate the 7 hills with the city of Rome - but are there not other cities in the world that might also fit this description? Who is being deceived here? Are we being held captive by the "tradition of men" (Col 2:8)? An additional observation is the "doctrine" of the pre-trib "rapture" of the Church. This is a recent addition to Christian "theology." IMO, one who holds to this teaching or rejects it does not an apostate make. Christ is coming, and He has given us "signs of His coming" yet do we "heed those signs?" Jesus said, “You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?” Luke 12:56 “Jews, it is often said, are the canary in the coal mine of civilization. When they become the objects of savagery and hate, it means the air has been poisoned and an explosion is soon to come. If Europeans don't rise up and turn against the Jew-haters, the Jew-haters will rise up and turn against them.” Jeff Jacoby, The Boston Globe, 4/28/02. Mr. Jacoby has made observations and rightly concludes that the Jews seem to be a barometer of peace for the world. God's Word tells us that HE has chosen them; they are the "apple of His eye." (Zech 2:8) If the secular press is able to recognize that the Jews are a special people and that they have a profound effect upon the world, yet why does it seem that the Church is as ignorant as the scribes and other religious leaders in Jesus' day? God said, “I make known the end from the beginning.” (See Isa 46:9-11) He has given us signs from His Word that allows us to interpret “this present time.” To further assist us, God has even told us about our adversary, the devil. Satan also knows what the end of the story is! God tells us that he is like a roaring lion, on the prowl to devour and destroy; the devil is “full of fury because he knows his time is short.” (Rev 12:12) Furthermore, God instructs us: “Be very careful, then, how you live--not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.” Ephesians 5:15-17 Certainly, we can easily identify the things in our world that are evil. But are we looking for signs that enable us also to discern “this present time?” When we, as followers of Jesus, fully appreciate that the Lord could return at any moment, we will wisely use what time there is left to live for Him and His purposes. Blessings, mommapbs |
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2 | "Two witnesses." When? Who? | Rev 11:3 | CDBJ | 136551 | ||
Hi mommapbs, Your post has me thoroughly confused. Do you believe the order of events described by Paul in II Thes? The subject is found in verse 1, which is what most believers generally call the rapture. 2 Thes. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Paul goes on to tell us that certain thing “must” transpire “BEFORE” the Lord will return, which to me means that the Lord won’t gather us until it happens. 2 Thes. 2:3-5 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? Now it looks like you are trying to deceive me by telling me the following, which is in opposition to what Paul taught? “When we, as followers of Jesus, fully appreciate that the Lord could return at any moment,” So who is right, Paul or you, saying that the Lord could return at any moment? I hope you see the same things in these verses that I do, because a lot of believers are going to have their faith shaken to the core when these thing start to transpire, when the son of perdition shows up and is persecuting the church and we haven’t left the earth yet? If Satan can't get at the Jews he is going to go after the Church. Rev. 12:12-17 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. [13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. [14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. [15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. [16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. These past verses coincide with what Paul was telling us in II Thess. and what Jesus said in Matt 24! Have a great day, CDBJ |
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3 | "Two witnesses." When? Who? | Rev 11:3 | Mommapbs | 136554 | ||
CDBJ - the argument is not when the Lord will return for indeed He will. He could come at any time, yes AFTER the order of these things have taken place. I'm sorry not to be clear on this. I have no doubt that God is on HIS timetable. I'm just wondering about possibilities that we have not contemplated, mostly because we have been fed some "doctrine" which doesn't necessarily square (imo) with what Paul taught. I completely agree with what you wrote:I hope you see the same things in these verses that I do, because a lot of believers are going to have their faith shaken to the core when these thing start to transpire, when the son of perdition shows up and is persecuting the church and we haven’t left the earth yet? It troubles me to the core, yet my own church continues to preach pre-trib theology and I quietly instruct my children that this may not be so and to not be alarmed if and when they are persecuted (yes, even onto death) for their faith in Jesus. Thes western preachers might have a hard time with this in the pulpits of countries where believers are losing their lives. Well, that's my thinking, I hope I've clarified it for you. Blessings, mommapbs |
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