Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Please help me to understand these verse | 2 Thess 2:13 | frankndebois | 18312 | ||
I was raised up in the church all my life. I thought that I understood about what salvation and the choice of accepting/not accepting it as well. I even used to teach it to others as much as possible. As I was trying my best(I'm only a frail human) to live for God and to spread the WORD so that others would have a chance at salvation as well, when God allowed satan to throw me through the ringer using my wife and children and career. Now I know that these things will come about, but to make a long story shorter, it prompted me to study harder on these type of things happening to those who are HIS adopted sons. As I studied, I began to realize that the bible spoke several times about 'predestination' in several ways and instances. I even went back to Job to try to understand how God saw us. There are several scriptures that come to mind from the studies that I've done on this, but 2 of the ones that really has knocked me around quite a bit is in Job 1:6-1:12 especially 1:8 where the Lord brought Job to satan's attention to do these terrible things to him and his family. And then, for a second time, 2:1-2:6 especially 2:3 where He did basically the same thing, only in a worse way. The second place is in Romans 9:10-9:13 where it says "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." and as the verse above it says that this was before they were even born. And in Rom 9:15-9:18 where it states,...For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." And in Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Now I have tried to understand why He would create beings for the purpose of destruction and then turn around and say that He is "not willing that any should perish" in the scripture...(2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.), but I can't seem to grasp this. It has been tormenting me for more than 5 years now, and how can I teach others what I can't understand myself. So, I'm asking someone/anyone to help me in this dilemna so that I can get back to trying to spread His word again and moreso, live for Him without this hammer of doubt that hangs over me now. I am thouroughly confused to the point that I began doubting the validity of what we know of as the bible(thinking that we possibly have been tricked by a book that is not truly what God has given us) I mean, how can He be 'love' and hate someone even before they are born, or create beings for eternal destruction and say that he don't want any to perish. Please help me to see what I am missing here. |
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2 | Please help me to understand these verse | 2 Thess 2:13 | Morant61 | 18322 | ||
Alternative View.................................. Greetings Frankndebois! Steve and Joe (both fine Christian men) have responded to you from a reformed position. Allow me to respond from an Arminian perspective. 2 Peter 3:9 makes a very strong statement: "9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Whatever election and predestination mean, they cannot mean that God desires anyone to be lost. For a good discussion of these issues, read Robert Shank's books "Life in the Son" and "Elect in the Son." Also, I have started a series of posts on Romans 9-11. If you would like to check them out, do a word search on "morant61" and "rom". I need to finish these posts, but there is quite a bit there already on Romans 9. My short answer would be this, election and predestination refer to God's eternal plan to save both Jews and Gentiles, not to unconditional individual salvation. Everyone who responds to God's gift of salvation becomes one of the elect. I hope this helps! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Please help me to understand these verse | 2 Thess 2:13 | Mickodemus | 91893 | ||
Brother Tim, I know I keep coming back to this subject, but it keeps going back and forth in my mind. I still can't see how you cannot see the election of Christ in Scriptures as to HIS inividuals (we Christians/sheep/elect). Spurgeon quoted in "A Defense of Calvinism" (www.spurgeonministries.com/Resource_page.htm): "I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."...... "I recollect an Arminian brother telling me that he had read the Scriptures through a score or more times, and could never find the doctrine of election in them. He added that he was sure he would have done so if it had been there, for he read the Word on his knees. I said to him, "I think you read the Bible in a very uncomfortable posture, and if you had read it in your easy chair, you would have been more likely to understand it. Pray, by all means, and the more, the better, but it is a piece of superstition to think there is anything in the posture in which a man puts himself for reading: and as to reading through the Bible twenty times without having found anything about the doctrine of election, the wonder is that you found anything at all: you must have galloped through it at such a rate that you were not likely to have any intelligible idea of the meaning of the Scriptures." I would add more but it would be to lengthy. Please read it for yourself at the site listed above. It's very enlightening. This is why I jumped back to this subject! While reading this document from Spurgeon it reminded me so much of you and the arguments we have on Election/Predestination. I just had to bring it up again!! ") Sola Scriptura Mike |
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4 | Please help me to understand these verse | 2 Thess 2:13 | Morant61 | 91903 | ||
Greetings Mike! I don't believe I ever mentioned a certain position from which one had to read the Bible! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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