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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Matt. 23:37 Calvinism or Arminianism? | Matt 23:37 | kalos | 70429 | ||
Does Matt. 23:37 prove: (a) Calvinism or (b) Arminianism? Matt 23:37 (KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, AND YE WOULD NOT! (Emphasis added.) "I WOULD HAVE...AND YE WOULD NOT." |
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2 | Matt. 23:37 Calvinism or Arminianism? | Matt 23:37 | John Reformed | 70434 | ||
Dear Kalos, I agree with Joe that Matt 23:37 does not (in itself) prove either A or C, I do think that it is important to identify who the "Ye" in "but ye would not" refers to. A careful reading of the preceeding verses in chapt. 23 may reveal the mistake that many have made, by misunderstanding who "Ye" actually are. God Bless You, John |
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3 | Matt. 23:37 Calvinism or Arminianism? | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 70450 | ||
Greetings All! I'm not going to address the Question of C or A! But, I will diagram the sentence so that everyone will be able to determine who 'ye' is! :-) "Jerusalem, Jerusalem (Feminine, Singular, Vocative case of address), You who kill (Articular Present, Active Participle,Feminine, Singular, Vocative) the prophets and who stone (Present, Active Participle,Feminine, Singular, Vocative) those sent (Articular, Perfect, Passive, Participle, Masculine, Singular, Accusative - object) to her (3rd person pronoun, Feminine, Singular, Accusative), how often I wanted (Aorist, Active, Indicative, 1st person, Singular) to gather together (Aorist, Active, Infinitive) the children of you (2nd Person pronoun, Genitive, Singular)............and not you would (Aorist, Active, Indicative, 2nd person, Plural). The interesting thing about this verse is that Jesusalem, you who kill and stone the prophets, and even the 'of you' in the phrase 'the children of you' are all singular in number. Yet, the last verb is plural in number. The only word in the verse which this plural could refer to is 'the children' whom God wanted to gather together. Greek is a very precise language. A verb and the pronouns associated with it will all agree in number. So, I would say that the children of Jerusalem, whom God wanted to gather together, were not willing to be gathered together. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Matt. 23:37 Calvinism or Arminianism? | Matt 23:37 | Reformer Joe | 70452 | ||
That's interesting...so Jesus is starts off with the object of his address being the city itself and changes it to the "children" in the last clause alone (gramatically speaking)? Do the genders match up as well? You said that "Jerusalem" is feminine in the Greek, and I would assume that a collective group of humans ("children") is likely to be masculine (and I know you will correct me if I am wrong). So is the Greek pronoun for "you" in the final clause masculine or feminine (if there is a pronoun at all there)? I will be taking a three-semester equivalent of both Greek and Hebrew this summer D.V., so I look forward to "playing at a new level." :) --Joe! |
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5 | Matt. 23:37 Calvinism or Arminianism? | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 70455 | ||
Greetings Joe! Great questions! Unfortunatly, regular verb forms do not include gender! The last verb phrase does not include an explicit pronoun, just the one included in the verb form itself. So it is translated as "You (plural) would not". The participles , like at the beginning of the verse, do include definite articles and they are all feminine in agreement with Jerusalem. 'The children' is actually a Neuter, Plural, Accusative noun. So, my translation is limited to the agreement in number. The last verb only matches up with 'the children' in number - unless of course you count the plural nouns and verbals (the prophets, those sent, and the chicks). But, I think the context is pretty clear that either Jerusalem or her children were the ones not willing. I was a bit surprised myself, since I had never translated this verse before. That is great news about the classes. With your language background, you should pick them up very quickly. Greek is very regular in it's rules, but there are a bunch of forms to learn! :-) I thought that Hebrew was more difficult, but mostly because the letters were so different from what I was accustomed to reading - they appear more oriental or asian than our script. Plus, I never could get the hang of reading from right to left, and back to front! :o Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Matt. 23:37 Calvinism or Arminianism? | Matt 23:37 | Reformer Joe | 70459 | ||
Well, maybe I am just backward enough myself to master the Hebrew language! ;) --Joe! |
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