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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Matt. 23:37 Calvinism or Arminianism? | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 70654 | ||
Greetings John! You wrote: "Do you still believe that it is my tradition that forces me to read, into this 23rd chapter of Matthew, a biased understanding? I maintain that an unbiased exegesis supports, rather than undermines my interpretation." Yes, I do, for two reasons! First of all, look at how you worded your conclusion! "In conclusion: in v. 37 Jesus is rebuking the pharisees for refusing them the freedom to gather before Christ to hear His words and find protection in Him." Even if you are correct that the 'you would not' refers to the Pharisees, which I still don't accept (though it is not impossible, just unlikely based upon the Grammar), nothing in the verse says that the Pharisees would not let the children gather before Christ. The 'you would not' refers directly to God's desire to gather the children together, not to the children's desire or ability to gather together. So, in your conclusion, you have changed the meaning from them stopping God from doing something He willed to the Pharisees stopping the children from doing something that they wanted to do. Secondly, even if the Pharisees are the ones to whom the 'you would not' refers, my main point is still valid. God willed something, but man would not and God was not able to do that which He willed. Just as in the point above, the 'gather together' was the action God willed to do, not the people, but someone was unwilling. Even Calvin admits that this passage refers to the unwillingness of people in every age to allow God to gather them together. He wrote in his Institutes (Book 3, Chapter 24, Section 17) ********************************************* "Another passage quoted is the lamentation of our Savior, "O Jerusalem Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matth. 23: 37;) but it gives them no support. I admit that here Christ speaks not only in the character of man, but upbraids them with having, in every age, rejected his grace. But this will of God, of which we speak, must be defined. For it is well known what exertions the Lord made to retain that people, and how perversely from the highest to the lowest they followed their own wayward desires, and refused to be gathered together. But it does not follow that by the wickedness of men the counsel of God was frustrated." ************************************************ From here though, he simply goes on to say (paraphrased) that God didn't really will to gather them together! So, a contextual exegesis (I believe) would be that throughout the ages, the people of Jerusalem have resisted God's efforts and will to love and protect them. As a result, they would be punished, which most see in Mt. 23:38 (probably a reference to the destruction of the city in 70 a.d.). But, as I said, whoever the 'you would not' refers to, the logic of the verses goes: God willed something, man resisted, God could not do that which He willed. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Matt. 23:37 Calvinism or Arminianism? | Matt 23:37 | John Reformed | 70662 | ||
Dear Tim, it seems, not merely reasonable, but most likely that if the children were the ones identified as Jerusalem, then the verse would have read thus: "How often would I have gathered your children together as a mother fowl gathers her brood under her wings, and (or but) THEY refused! James White, (a well respected theologian, author and expert in greek), offers the following reasons why Jerusalem refers to the pharisees: 1) It is to the leaders God sent prophets. 2) It was the Jewish leaders who killed the prophets and those God sent to them. 3) Jesus speaks of "your children" differentiating those to whom He is speaking from those whom the Lord desired to gather together. The opposition and resistance to the will of Christ were not made by the people, but by their governors. The common people seemed inclined to attend his ministry, as appears from the vast crowds, which, at different times and places, followed him; but the chief priests, and rulers, did all they could to hinder the collection of them to him, and their belief in him as the Messiah; ( John Gill) We are all hindered in one way or other from a pefect understanding of Scripture. We still have the world, the flesh and the devil, doing all they can to befuddle us. Our challenge is to set aside the spectacles of denominational tradition and the enculturation of our present age and to aproach the Word as babes who are totaly reliant on our Father to teach us. If the truth be known, none of us enjoy having our theological apple carts upset. But it seems that Holy Spirit will knock them over when He it is time and by whatsoever means He chooses. Thank God that He does. If He overturns my understanding of Matthew 23, you'll be the first one I tell. :-) Brother John |
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3 | Matt. 23:37 Calvinism or Arminianism? | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 70666 | ||
Greetings John! I'll be waiting with bated breath! ;-) Merry Christmas my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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