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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Proof against election. | Matt 18:14 | Lucia7 | 243503 | ||
Shalom! I hope I'm posting this on EdB's "Proof against election." (Kinda new here.) Good point, EdB, thanks for sharing. Hadn't considered this v. in this way before, and had to think about it from the perspective you presented. I think you're saying that since it is NOT God's will for any of these to perish, and yet we know that some of these will perish (have perished), there cannot be "election" or predestined salvation. I hope some believers in the predestination idea will respond here, so that we can understand how they might view this v. (and similar v.v.). I've tried discussing this subject with them (elsewhere), but have been dismissed with a "you're kidding, right?" Dr. Michael Brown said that he used to believe in predestination because it seemed to him that it was a doctrine held by intelligent believers, but he later came to see it as error. I would like to understand the bases for opposing viewpoints, so I hope others will respond. Blessings! |
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2 | Proof against election. | Matt 18:14 | DocTrinsograce | 243505 | ||
Shalom aleichem, baruch haba! I am a Jew, saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. I am saved by works... indeed, I am saved by mighty and wonderful works... the works of God Himself. Consequently, I am quite grateful, praising God daily that He did not leave me to my own choices. If He had, I would never have been saved! The Greek word pororidzo (predestine) appears in six verses in the New Testament (Romans 8:29, 30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5, and 11). If you are interested in God's sovereign providence, then you would want to understand these verses in their context. Each of these verses speak to your soteriological question. I am sorry that you have been "dismissed" as you tried "discussing this subject with them." Presumably by "them" you mean orthodox Biblical Christians. I cannot speak to their motivation. I would guess that it has to do with their being simply fed up with people who are more interested in defending their contribution to salvation than they are in the Word. The Scriptures do not elevate man's will above God's. However, not a single religion outside of these doctrines or even outside of Christianity, will admit to God's authority in all things. This is because, as Scripture assures us, that depending on the human heart will lead us only to being deceived (Jeremiah 17:9; Proverbs 28:25). In fact, the Word tells us that those who do so fundamentally lack sanity (Ecclesiastes 9:3b). Regardless, your problem is not a matter of failing to rightly understand the doctrine of God's predestination. It is more fundamental than that. When you argue about soteriological predestination, it is like arguing about Trigonometry when you still do not agree with the principle of addition and subtraction. Instead of trying to get people to argue the subject with you on the Internet, I would suggest that you find a pastor in your area with whom you could begin a discussion. He will help you with the basics concerning Scripture. Look for a church who hold to a confession (e.g., Lutheran Missouri Synod, Reformed Church of America, Dutch Reformed, Orthodox Presbyterian, or Reformed Baptist). The confession is what they understand to be the essential doctrines. Those without a confession will -- and do -- believe anything and everything. They will even place some things as having a higher authority than the Scripture. The pastor that you speak to will be able to articulate all historical perspectives. He will be able to help you in a far more practical way than we might do -- which is, actually, beyond our purview. Meanwhile, our forum, per our gracious host, the Lockman Foundation, is about Scripture. The Lockman Foundation sponsored the NASB and Amplified translations specifically because they believed that the Bible alone contains all that we must know to believe, to understand, and to obey our Lord. See the Terms of Use. The Terms of Use give us broad permission to express what we understand from Scripture; provided they are consistent with the eccumenical creeds: Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, Chalcedonian Creed, and Canons of the Council of Orange. While we all hold the Scriptures as the highest authority, we are functioning in accord with Lockman's objectives. Although some who participate in our forum hold their denominational praxis as having a higher priority than anything else (you will see them by their operation contrary to the Terms of Use) -- nonetheless, the rest of us will be praying for you specifically as you seriously seek answers to your questions in study in the church in your community. God will always respond when He is sought above all else. In Him, Doc |
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3 | Proof against election. | Matt 18:14 | EdB | 243519 | ||
Romans 8:29-30 (NKJV) 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 1 Corinthians 2:7 (NKJV) 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, Ephesians 1:5 (NKJV) 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Ephesians 1:11 (NKJV) 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, Is this talking of individual men or is it talking of the collective of the church which God did foreordain to be justified and bring glory to God? Scripture clearly talks of God’s desire that none should perish. In John 3:16 we no requirement of election or predestination but the only the requirement to believe, to become dependant in our believe that Christ provided our salvation. As to the comment “Look for a church who hold to a confession (e.g., Lutheran Missouri Synod, Reformed Church of America, Dutch Reformed, Orthodox Presbyterian, or Reformed Baptist). The confession is what they understand to be the essential doctrines. Those without a confession will -- and do -- believe anything and everything. They will even place some things as having a higher authority than the Scripture.†This takes us outside the Terms of Use of this forum. Most if not all denominations not just those mention hold to Doctrine. As a member of the Assemblies of God we have 16 distinct Doctrines which as an ordained minister I must sign a paper stating I hold these as truth each and every year. A violation of this would require me to relinquish my credentials. It is against the terms of use of the Lockman forum to suggest that other denominations are in error because they aren’t in the named group. I also submit that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit do in fact have a higher authority than scripture. NO where in scripture is there anything that states otherwise. In fact the Apostles were given authority to teach beyond scripture because the New Testament had not yet been written. The Holy Spirit was not withdrawn from man when the cannon of scripture was closed and much to the dismay of many the Holy Spirit’s ministry is alive and active today. The Holy Spirit will never take us pass the boundaries set by scripture but we should never reject the leading of the Holy Spirit as long as the leading brings glory and honor and majesty to Jesus. |
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Questions and/or Subjects for Matt 18:14 | Author | ||
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EdB | ||
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Lucia7 | ||
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DocTrinsograce | ||
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EdB |