Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | Wild Olive Shoot | 154964 | ||
Hi Doc, Would like your thoughts on, what I take as, the noticeable declension of the church in Ephesus (Revelation 2:4,5) compared to the so-called “backslidden” state. I’m really glad this subject came up. I’m currently studying 1 John and am having difficulties reconciling the fact that we do indeed sin, even with what the Holy Spirit does accomplish within us. From 1 John specifically, I come to an understanding that the Spirit of God works to the same result in all circumstances and that He can in no case produce un-holiness. Outside of this epistle you find reference to “quenching the Spirit” as in 1 Thessalonians 5:19. But even within the epistle I come to the conclusion that we receive a new nature at regeneration but keep remnants of the old. Could that, along with the rebuke given to the Church in Ephesus in Revelation, be indicative to the possibility of a backslidden condition within a Christian’s life? We are warned numerous times to beware of those who would lead us astray and arguably, it seems we can “forsake our first love” to a “degree” of falling away. Or is this a complete falling away from Christ? I get the sense, and I’m posting for the purpose of some sort of guidance here because I’m just really not sure, that there may be simply a temporary backslidden state to which we can repent of? Would really like to get everyone’s take on this. WOS |
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2 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | Hank | 154978 | ||
Hi, WOS. Though I haven't had occasion to interact with you much, I read your posts with interest and a keen appreciation of the obvious evidence that you think, a precious and fairly rare commodity in our easy-believism world these days :-) ...... Yes, there is such an entity as back-sliding, especially if you extend the definition to include any sin that a Christian commits -- and Christians do sin. And with each and every sin the Christian commits, he does, in some degree, back-slide: he certainly doesn't slide forward when he sins, does he? His sin doesn't cause him to progress in sanctification or thereby grow more Christ-like, or does it? Perhaps it can. Perhaps it does. Can we say that King David's sins, grievous though they were, may have served to bring him to his knees, prostrate and penitent, before the Holy One of Israel? Was Peter made a stronger follower of the Lamb of God in the wake of thrice denying Him? Can we deny God's power to build strength from weakness, faith from doubt, obedience from disobedience? ...... I'm a septuagenarian -- not to be confused with Presbyterian, although I was a Presbyterian at one time, but now am a Southern Baptist -- and I used to think that old folks had somehow out-lived the tendency and probably the ability to sin, but now that I am, by any sane measure, numbered among the senior citizenry -- a euphonism meaning that I am now a grumpy and decrepit old codger -- I recognize full well that "sin lieth at the door" of both young and old, of both rengenerated and unregenerated, and that so long as breath remains in these vessels of clay, the soul that lives within them will continue to sin, but thanks be to God. the blood of His Son cleanses us from all unrighteousness. ...... I once heard a minister, a man who I have every reason to believe was truly a redeemed man of God, confess candidly and unabashedly that he was at best only a part-time Christian. This stark admission rather shocked me at first, and my initial reaction was, was he trying to be funny? Flippant? A wise guy? But he went on to explain what he meant, and what he said made a great deal of sense to me then and makes sense to me still. Some days, he said, he really didn't feel much like a Christian; he thought things and said things and did things that clearly weren't very Christ-like. Sometimes, he continued, his faith was as weak as a sick kitten, his zeal for Christ as limp as a wet noodle, and he concluded that if his salvation depended on his feelings, his merits, and his woeful and abject failure to live a perfect life, he had no hope of eternal life. So now you see, he told his audience, why I say that I'm only a part-time Christian and, in essence, a dismal failure. Then he rebounded strongly and with a shout of unadultered joy, But thanks be to God, I am not saved because of my merits, of which I have so few, but by the grace of God which He showers on me in so great an abundance. ...... It was a blessed sermon that I heard on that fine day. I took it to heart, tucked it away in my mind, and think on it even now. I think that it is one I will never be able to forget. Or want to. --Hank | ||||||
3 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | Wild Olive Shoot | 154982 | ||
Hank, I thank you for you comments and time. We haven’t interacted much and I hope that isn’t the case in the future. If anything, I try to be aware of what you post on the forum because I’ve seen that no matter what the subject is, your responses convey truth and honesty with a wealth of experience behind them from what seems to me, to be a faithful walk with our Lord. So please, feel free to share your thoughts with me anytime. I tend to pay more attention to those who been around a while longer than I have. I’ve learned there is much yet to learn from the elder generation if only the younger would spend some of their time and listen. We all need to spend more time listening to, as you put it, “grumpy and decrepit old codgers”. You have plenty to share I’m sure. Thank you for reinforcing that there is nothing greater than God. So great that when we do begin to fall away, He has the power to catch us and use the results of our sin to break us and make realize that we can’t do without Him and if we think we can, we are terribly mistaken. That’s what I get from the references to King David and Peter. We’ll never, no matter how hard we try, be able to accomplish salvation on our own because we will falter if choose to step away from the Lord and venture on our own. But by the grace of God, we’ll return and through His Son we’ll remain acceptable. I’ve come to the understanding that our happiness is proportionate to our holiness. The closer we walk with our Lord, the more blessed we will be and in ways not even imagined. I’ve seen that in my relatively short time as a Christian. Years I spent lost without calling on the Lord to save me, and there has since been a noticeable difference concerning my peace and comfort and happiness. My only regret… I refused early on to recognize that only through His grace can I be confident of my salvation. Thank God for His grace. Thank you Brother Hank. WOS |
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4 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | DocTrinsograce | 154997 | ||
Dear Brother WOS, I was delighted to see Hank and JLHetrick contribute, along with your responses. Although it is commonly affirmed by my fellow Baptists, I do not care for the expression "once saved always saved." It is true, but it is misleading. Furthermore, it is touted by those who do not teach the whole Word of God. People are told that they can repeat a prayer, walk down an aisle, or be baptized, and all is well. How very tragic. Consequently I prefer the old phrase, "Perseverance of the Saints" or the even superior phrase "Infallible Grace." As the old divines put it, the saints "can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved." The problem is that there exists the potential for us to deceive ourselves. That is true of anyone and everyone. As Hank so eloquently put it, no one is ever free from needing the savior. We have nothing that can merit our salvation, not even living like a Christian at some point in the past! (Ezekiel talks about this in chapters 33 and 34.) It is how we are living at this very instant that shows the measure of God's grace in our lives! I also concur fully in your analysis of the so called "back-slidden" state. It is not a natural condition of a believer. If we find ourselves "camped out" in that state, no matter how short a time, we must understand that it is a place of danger. If we are saved, then God will not allow us to stay there, but the process of our restoration will be thoroughly unpleasant at best (per Hebrews 12 that speaks exactly to this point) or even death (1 Cor 3:15-16). Also, if we find ourselves "camped out" in that state, it may be a very good sign that we were never saved. No wonder we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling! Consequently, we must clearly understand what a saved person "looks like" when he is a disciple of Christ. I did a post on that subject a short while back (153858), but it would be great to do another one (perhaps you might take up the challenge) based on 1 John. We must be constantly examining ourselves to see where we measure up and where we fall short (see in particular 1 Cor 11:13). Now, I do not write all of this to say that the believer never has assurance of their salvation. I think that that would be a misunderstanding of Scripture as well. However, I truly do not believe that anyone deserves assurance nor can be guaranteed assurance! I can't seem to put my finger on it, but I recall A. W. Pink writing something to the effect that assurance was a gift for people who have been tried through the fire of adversity, have shown evidences of repentance, and have born much fruit. (Of course, he probably didn't mix metaphors.) What I'm talking about is something the theologians call "progressive sanctification." Now, I am not certain why God has done things as He has done them. We can be absolutely certain that at that final day of glorification we will be perfectly like Christ. Why, then, hasn't God just made us that way at salvation. We can be certain that he will receive greater glory by doing it the way He has done. But I suspect that He has done it in order to put on display the power of His work of regeneration, just as He used Job to that end. And, in the wonderful way that only God can do, He will use it all to the good of His children in ways that we cannot fathom. Thus, we are made holy in Him, but we are to pursue holiness. We are imputed the righteousness of Christ, but we are to walk in righteousness. We are given new affections, but we are to strain with all our power to love. We are united in Christ, but we are to strive for unity. We are divested of the old man, but we are to put on the new. We are sanctified, but we are to strive for sanctification. In the past, I've called this a "tension" -- and maybe I got that from someone else, I do not recall. However, the tension that the Scripture asserts over and over is never something for which it apologizes! Therefore, we must not do that either! Sorry for being long winded -- or should that be long keyboarded? In Him, Doc |
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5 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | jlhetrick | 155003 | ||
Hello Doc, I must say that I usually follow your posts well and 99 percent of the time have agreed with what you have had to say. You have redirected my thinking and taught me some truths and generally been very helpful. I hope I am wrong but I am now getting the feeling that you are interested in calling other's thoughts and beliefs into question; which would be fine and appropriate if you are able to support your arguments with scripture and therefore be a teacher. Again, I have to take issue with your comments that both directly and indirectly make reference to one of my posts. While I too am usually uncomfortable with almost any kind of "lingo", some of it used by Christians is sometimes the most insincere and abused. In my earlier post I refered to "once saved always saved" as a commonly quoted belief and argument. Though I did not use the phrase as my own language, and therefore feel no need to defend it, I question what you mean when you say it is misleading. You make the statement but give no evidence or support for making it. If you believe that a person can not lose his/her salvation (as you say you do) then what is misleading about the statement? I too prefer language such as "Perseverance of the Saints" and "Infallible Grace." but, that does not make these sayings "superior" except perhaps in our own minds. You write: "I truly do not believe that anyone deserves assurance nor can be guaranteed assurance!" Let me help you with this because this is important. It is not a question of one's deserving, we deserve nothing from God except eternal wrath; it is a question of God's will for us. God wants you to be sure and to be guaranteed of that assurance. Phil 1:5-6 "because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now,being CONFIDENT of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." NIV (emphasis mine) I agree we are to work out our salvation with "fear and trembling" but please, don't confuse this "working out" with "obtaining through receiving". If a person has trusted in the Lord He/she is saved and encouraged again and again in scripture to have confidence and assurance in that. That is why Paul is so tedious in articulating the gift and miracle of salvation. The "working out" involves one's "becoming" more like Christ, which can only occur after salvation. I have read A. W. Pink as well, an eloquent writer, but his feelings and thoughts on a subject have to take a back seat to the scriptures. I appreciate your remarks regarding "progressive sanctification" and believe that it is here that your misunderstanding is linked. Sanctification is indeed a ongoing process in which the Holy Spirit continues in us the process of becoming more like Christ. But this process begins after salvation is received Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification , and the end eternal life. ASV Thank you for your continuing remarks under and including "progressive sanctification". They were enlightening and encouraging. Sincerely, Jeff PS, I truly look forward to continuing to follow your posts and feel confident that I will continue to learn from you. Thank you for that. |
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6 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | DocTrinsograce | 155006 | ||
Dear Jeff, I had only intended to congratulate you on your explanation, along with the with the contributions of Hank and WOS. Jeff, I'm a pretty simple man. I tend to avoid innuendo. I promise that if I find fault with anything you post on the forum, I will explicitly point it out. Furthermore, I promise that I have not -- in this thread or any other thread -- impugned your "thoughts and beliefs." In fact -- I'm embarrassed to add -- you have hardly been on my mind at all. Honest! Please, do not be so eager to see something negative in me -- there is enough, already, that is actually negative in me! :-) I explained why the phrase "once saved always saved" was misleading. (Did you note that I also wrote it was true?) I wrote, "it is touted by those who do not teach the whole Word of God. People are told that they can repeat a prayer, walk down an aisle, or be baptized, and all is well." We are in the forum to study the Bible. Everyone of us are learning to understand it better, to apply it to our lives more, and to walk in its teaching. Consequently, we discuss it in an exchange of posts. When I say that an expression is "superior" right after I've stated that some other term has its failings, then I mean is that it is better at expressing the scriptural concept. When I teach or preach I use the "superior" terms so that the flock will be less likely to error. Since you question my position on the authority of Scripture, let me assure you of my embrasure of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. In addition, I highly approve of the the more recent Chicago Statements on Biblical Inerrancy and Hermeneutics. I agree with your general statement that a believer is encouraged to confidence in the efficacious work of the Father's calling, the Son's atonement, and the Spirit's sealing and leading. However, I would deny that assurance should be offered to people who show no evidence of a changed life, nor have any desire for holiness. Those people should be encouraged in their fear and doubt, for the fear of the Lord leads to repentance. The problem, as I said in my discussion with WOS, is that so little is understood about what it means to be a believer. I did not intend to state that sanctification began at some point prior to regeneration. (I have written a number of times on the ordo salutis. You might want do a search for those posts.) Consequently, I agree, in general that progressive sanctification must begin with salvation. To be more specific, I would say that it logically falls after justification, but before glorification. Thank you for the opportunity to rectify misunderstandings and clarify statements. In Him, Doc PS I'm curious too know which book of A. W. Pink did you read? I run into so few people who have actually read them. |
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7 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | jlhetrick | 155010 | ||
OK Doc, perhaps I am oversensitive and/or reading into your statements. If so, or in any case, I sincerely apologize for my own argumentativeness. I am not so eager to see negative in you, only seemed to be seeing it. I did note in my post (I believe I did anyway) that you agreed that salvation is a permanent state once received. I am an educated man. I too have an appreciation for language that is best representative of one's point and argument. I, on the other hand find myself very often using a good deal of common and even slang language when I teach or preach. Perhaps this is to my failing and the detriment of my students and listeners. Perhaps I am sometimes guilty of assuming that they might not know or be familiar with some of the language. Anyway, I will consider this more. Regarding "assurance" this post is more understandable to me (if I have it right). It appears to me that you are referring to the assurance (or encouragement) that we as believers might give to another "professing" Christian. If I have you right on this then I agree. We also agree regarding sanctification. Thanks. Regarding A.W. Pink, I have only recently become familiar with his writings. I am currently reading from "Why Four Gospels" for personal entertaiment and learning. I am doing some digging in "The Doctrine of Justification" in preparation for my Sunday lessons at church. Thanks for your reply, Jeff |
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8 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | DocTrinsograce | 155013 | ||
Dear Jeff, As I suspected, we're "on the same page." :-) God bless you in your feeding the flock. When we love the Lord, we love what He loves. He loves His flock, and the best way for us to love the flock is to feed and tend them! It is a blessing to know that others are reading Pink. I would commend you to "The Sovereignty of God" when you get the time. By the way, on the topic of "Eternal Security," Pink wrote a very interesting booklet, which is available online: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Security/security.htm In Him, Doc PS Please, consider dropping me an e-mail sometime! |
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9 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | jlhetrick | 155015 | ||
Dear Doc, Thanks for another learning experience. And thanks for the point to the website. Sincerely, Jeff |
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