Results 261 - 280 of 1928
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Results from: Notes Author: Reformer Joe Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
261 | TRINITY | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 49682 | ||
"But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?" --Romans 2:3 |
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262 | Are we still under the Ten Commandments? | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 49854 | ||
You wrote: "Why not? Because the ten commandments cannot save us it is a law and like any other law it can only condemn us or show us that we are sinners" The law certainly does that, but is it ALL it does? "The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether. They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb. Moreover, by them Your servant is warned; In keeping them there is great reward." --Psalm 19:7-11 "How blessed are those whose way is blameless, Who walk in the law of the LORD. How blessed are those who observe His testimonies, Who seek Him with all their heart. They also do no unrighteousness; They walk in His ways. You have ordained Your precepts, That we should keep them diligently. Oh that my ways may be established To keep Your statutes!" --Psalm 119:1-5 That whole Psalm is a tesimony to the worth of the law of God. Conviction of sin is but one use of the law. --Joe! |
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263 | Are we still under the Ten Commandments? | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50186 | ||
Thanks, dasev. I think one of the biggest problems facing American evangelicalism today is its lack of understanding of the law of God and the absolute disdain of it seen in certain circles. The fact is that we will only be salt and light and be a distinctive and transforming presence as long as we take seriously following the commandments of our God. We have been bitten by the "easy-believism" bug which gives an incomplete picture of true Christianity. We hear a great deal of the "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" (which is an aspect of what Christianity is, to be sure) but very little about Christianity being a life of discipleship: 'And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me."' --Luke 9:23 "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." --1 Peter 2:24 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." --John 14:15 Now none of the above can be done with out the grace of God and the empowering work of the Holy Spirit, but they are indeed marks of the true Christian. For anyone else interested in exploring the relationship between law and gospel, here are a couple of good links: http://www.founders.org/FJ28/contents.html http://www.presenttruthmag.com/archive/VII/index.htm http://www.markers.com/ink/tblawgospel.htm Hope this turns out to be a useful study, especially for those who find themselves asking, "I have faith in Jesus Christ, but now what?" --Joe! |
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264 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50197 | ||
RAVEN: You wrote: 'If I ask you who was the founder of your church who would you say that would be? If you ask me I could only give one answer and that would be Jesus Christ because He said, "I will build My church".' That would be the answer that I would give as well for "my church." Of course, looking at it another way, I could point to Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell as key founders (or "restorers," as you prabably like to view it) of the Churches of Christ, couldn't I? You also wrote: "No denomination can say that truthfully, because all denomiations add or subtract from the bible according to the traditions of men." 1. How do you define a "denomination," and how do the Churches of Christ not constitute a "denomination"? In other words, what makes a denomination a denomination? I have heard the "evils of denominationalism" promoted for some time by those who are Church of Christ, and I would love to hear from the horses mouth exactly how they distinguish between the Chruches of Christ and a "denomination." 2. Please explain in more detail how your church is free from the possibility of doctrinal error simply because it is not (at least the way you see it) part of a denomination? There may have been no denominations in the first-century church, but we see the writings of the apostles battling false teaching left and right. --Joe! |
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265 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50310 | ||
You wrote: "The writings in the bible by the Apostles and prophets are our only guide." So you would agree with a statement such as this one? "To let God be true means to let God have the say as to what is the truth that sets men free. It means to accept his Word, the Bible, as the truth. Hence...our appeal is to the Bible for truth. Our obligation is to back up what is said...by quotations from the Bible for proof of truthfulness and reliability. That is the course the inspired writers and faithful characters of the Bible took and recommended." You wrote: "To put it plainly if the church of Christ that I know to be the true church of God that we have today is not the true church, then just by the standards set forth in the bible then we have lost the church and the whole of humanity and all are going to Hell." So where was the church between the end of the first century and the beginning of the 19th? You wrote: "To know a denomination you can go to the scriptures and see if what they practice is in accordance with the New Testament." Paul wrote: "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." --2 Timothy 3:16-17 The "Scripture" Paul was referring to here is the OLD Testament. Looking through nearly every book of the New Testament, I see that "the writings of the Apostles" that serve as "our only guide" sure make a great deal of reference and reinforcement of the Old Testament teachings. Then I turn back to Psalm 150 and see the Church of Christ's false teaching about music (unless God has changed His mind). I see choirs in the Old Testament, without any prohibition against them in the New (God changing His mind again?). Not every denomination allows women pastors or pastor rule. Timothy apparently was a single pastor. So what I see are a lot of traditions of men given the weight of commandments of God, along with some valid arguments against SOME practices in SOME denominations. All this, and still no definition of what a denomination is. The Churches of Christ fit most, if not all, the traditional marks of a denomination. --Joe! |
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266 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50311 | ||
Good grief. What Raven is saying in his post is precisely what Paul was condemning in 1 Corinthians. He is the one saying that his church alone is THE true church, and that if the church of Christ is not the true church, then there is no true church left on earth. Do you not have a problem with such a statement? --Joe! |
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267 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50336 | ||
Oh, dear me. You seem to think that true Christians believe that saving faith is just a "nod of the head" about some teaching. Yes, true faith leads to and manifests itself in obedience, but it is not the obedience itself that saves us. Do you really think that you can earn your place in heaven by the things that you do? Faith without works is indeed a dead, useless, and false faith, but works can never save us. RAVEN, why can you not read these few verses and not know that our works will not save anybody or anyone at anytime? 'What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness"' --Romans 4:1-5 "Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification." --Romans 4:23-25 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." --Ephesians 2:8-10 [saved FOR good works, not as a RESULT of them] "But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." --Titus 3:4-7 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." --John 5:24 Listen, RAVEN. We can play Bible ping-pong all day long and the conclusion will be the same. Every passage that you cite regarding the importance of fruit and good works in the life of the Christian fits quite well with the teaching that true, saving faith results in good works. None of the verses above fit into your scheme of "faith plus works results in us having a right standing with God." --Joe! |
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268 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50367 | ||
You are the one who is blind, RAVEN, thinking that your works are anything but filthy rags before an infinitely holy God. Do you really think you are going to stand before God and say that you deserve to come in because you have done this and this and this? Please. You have absolutely no right on your own even to stand before a holy God. Your false theology makes Christ's sacrifice absolutely unnecessary. You obviously are blind, still in your sins, because you can't even follow Hank's argument at all. Or mine. We accept the whole counsel of God. We see the role of works as the evidence of true, saving faith. You, on the other hand, have nothing to say in response to Romans 4 or Ephesians 2:8-10, because that would mean abandoning your false church's teachings. What you accuse of others can eaily be applied to yourself: "Can't you see that it is you who are trying to take away from the bible by not submitting to all of it?" --Joe! |
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269 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50371 | ||
Mouse 2: Thanks for junping in. Let me address your two responses: 1. You quoted that 'a denomination is by definition a part of the whole, hence a party among parties. The theory of denominationalism is that one may be a Christian and a member of the universal and "invisible" church, but by choice may be also a member of a particular segment of "Christianity".' So the Church of Christ's solution to not being identified as a "part" of Christianity is suggesting that they encompass the whole of Christianity. You still habe the same "invisible/visible church" issue within the Churches of Christ, however. You are not a member of a Church of Christ congregation in the city where I live, but rather in a Church of Christ congregation where you live. If the Church of Christ where I live is the true church, how can it also be where you live? See the problem? In one form or another, you have to accept the idea that the Church spoken of in Scripture transcends a single physical space. You just exclude ones with names like "Baptist" or "Presbyterian" or even "other" non-denominational churches (I use quotes since the Church of Christ is indeed a denomination, being a "part" of the visible church) from the mix. Sorry, but simply saying that you are not a denomination does not make you any less of one. That or a false church... Regarding your second response, you quoted: "Yet someone noted that if the game of baseball were wiped off the face of the earth, and someone discovered the rule book a thousand years from now and restored the game of baseball, would it be a new game?" Interesting that you compare the church of the Lord Jesus to a game that consists entirely of rules, as if that is all the church is. Does this quote mean that you do indeed believe the church disappeared off the face of the earth between the first century and it's "restoration" by the likes of Stone and Campbell? Please answer directly. We can take it. And if so, can you point out exactly when it vanished without a trace? --Joe! |
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270 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50376 | ||
"I give up. Though I do not agree with you because the case stands that the man of God will follow all the teachings of the bible not just the ones they can twist into their scheme of redemption!!" Then SHOW me how I am twisting those verses I quoted. I am completely open to hearing how you are going to take verses that say "faith, NOT works" and show me how they really mean "faith PLUS works." I showed you that true Christians do realize the importance of good works, and yet you continue to imply that we do not consider them important at all. You can't even be intellectually honest enough not to argue against a straw man. It is God's "scheme of redemption" we are talking about, RAVEN, not mine. Are you so willing to cling to your "good works" (Romans 3:10-23) as to spend an eternity in hell for the sake of your church's teachings? --Joe! |
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271 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50440 | ||
'Are you saying that the New Testament is not inspired. Joe it did not say Old Testament only, it said "ALL".' Yes, I am saying the NT is not inspired. Couldn;t you tell from my constant quotation of it that I do not hold it in high regard? Please get real. (And for those just joining us, that is sarcasm). Since the New Testament was not complete yet, Paul was referring here to the Old Testament, however. You wrote: "The church has always been since it was established. Though it may have been small and partly crushed due to Roman rule." Really? So where were people baptising by immersion before the Anabaptists of the 16th century? Since burial in water is a prereqiuisite for entering heaven according to the Churches of Christ, please point out to us where that was being done in the Middle Ages. You wrote: "Joe are you under the old or the new Testaments? Which one? Give an answer?" Being a Gentile, I was never part of the Mosaic Covenant. However, you have yet to demonstrate how musical instruments and choirs are forbidden in the church. That is the biggest bunch of silliness that has ever come down the pike! You wrote: "But the church was established in the NEW!" The church was established in the New, but there is a continuous link between the Old Testament people of God (saved by grace through faith in the coming redemption -- Abraham in Romans 4 again) and the New Testament people of God (saved by grace through faith in the accomplished redemption). One group was not abolished to establish the other. Rather, Gentiles were grafted in to God's people (Romans 9-11). The two became one (Galatians 3:27-29; Ephesians 2:11-22). So we see that God never liked divorce, but permitted it. Please show me where God hated musical instruments and choirs, but permitted them. --Joe! |
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272 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50445 | ||
"Do you believe baptism for the remission of sins is essential to being saved?" I believe this: "Although it be a great sin to condemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it, or that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated." Just like other commandments, a refusal to be baptised is a pretty good sign of not being regenerate. It is essential for the one in Christ to be baptised, but it is not baptism that makes one a Christian. You wrote: "The bible teaches it. And these are the kinds of works I am refering to." These kinds of works? What kinds? Baptism falls into the same category as what other works. After being baptised, what must I do to be saved? Please post the entire list so that I can know what things to check off. --Joe! |
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273 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50448 | ||
I am, but He is strong. :) "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." --Romans 5:6 --Joe! |
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274 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50456 | ||
You wrote: "One needs to understand the universal church and the local church. The universal church is the whole body of believers, canvassing the entire globe. Its only officer is Jesus Christ. (Eph 1:22-23) No other organizational structure to be found in the universal church. The local church is just that, local." 1. There are many independent churches that are not part of the Churches of Christ who agree ("Bible" churches, "Independent Baptist" churches, "Congregationalist" churches). The congregationalist form of church government is by no means limited to the churches of Christ. 2. Secondly, if there is no other office outside of the local church, how do you explain Titus and Timothy? They weren't elders in the churches in Crete and Ephesus. They appointed elders. We also see church councils in the book of Acts, where leaders from different churches come together to set policy which will be binding on all of the churches. Like it or not, there is precedent in Scripture for overseeing bodies. You wrote: 'Can we be real? You completely missed the point or chose to miss it. Obviously the church is not a game nor does it consist entirely of rules! The point is: it is ridiculous to claim the church we read in the NT is “new” because you believe it is new to this age and time.' I never suggested that you considered the Church of Christ to be "new." I am well aware that you consider it a restoration of the 1st century church. The quote you gave suggested that it was something that was lost completely and then found again by human beings some time later. You wrote: "No, I don’t believe the church disappeared off the face of the earth." Then where was the church all those years? Please show me where people were being buried in water for the remission of their sins? And how did Stona and Campbellhook up with this already existing church, if it was so far removed from the "mainstream." History shows that Barton Stone was not brought into the "true church" that had existed since the time of Christ, but rather that he considered himself as "restoring" the church. Again, please show us when and where there are examples of the "true church" between A.D 300 and A.D 1500. One or two will suffice. --Joe! |
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275 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50507 | ||
You wrote: " Scripture is sufficient for me. I recall the rich man wanting Lazarus to go back and warn his brothers so they could avoid eternal torment. Abraham?s response: ?If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.? Luke 16:19-31 If you want to refute what God has said, you show there weren?t any Scriptural baptisms occurring." Wow, Jesus and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus has NOTHING to do with what I am saying. I am not refuting anything God said. You, however, are insisting that what you call "Scriptural baptisms" were occurring consistently somewhere, somehow since the first century, with not a shred of historical evidence to show that such was the case. So we have three options, the way I see it: 1. What you call "Scriptural baptisms" are not Scriptural baptisms (or at least not the ONLY ones). or 2. They were indeed Scriptural baptisms, but Scriptural baptism is not absolutely necessary to be saved. or 3. Most, if not all people between the end of the first century and the "restoration" of the Church of Christ are in Hell, with the church non-existent for well over a milennium. You wrote: 'Why would they need to ?hook up?? Plant the seed (The Word of God), you yield the same church,the church the Lord established, the church of Christ.' So you are talking about a re-establishment of the church, after all. Some "visible church" you have there, if you can't give a single example of the visible church for a span of 1200 years! It really makes passages like this come alive, as well: "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." --Ephesians 2:19-22 No matter how you try and portray it, what you are describing are "new plants" (churches) springing up the Bible being "sown" (a misapplication of Matthew 13, since Jesus was talking about individuals and not churches). We still have one or two men, completely on their own, disconnected completely from church history, claiming that everything has been wrong since the first century, and establishing a new movement claiming itself to be a restoration of the earliest church. In this regard, the Churches of Christ share a similar legacy as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (hey, they even have a "correct name"!) and the Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact, the quote I gave earlier in this thread, undisputed by you or RAVEN, which began by stating: "To let God be true means to let God have the say as to what is the truth that sets men free. It means to accept his Word, the Bible, as the truth. Hence...our appeal is to the Bible for truth." is actually taken from a book on my shelf entitled "Let God Be True," published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. So we can clearly see that claims to be the restored early church and to cling to the word of God alone can actually be in error. Same with the Churches of Christ. --Joe! |
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276 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50508 | ||
You wrote: "Like it or not, they aren?t wearing a Scriptural name and a little digging will reveal they aren?t practicing what was taught in the NT. Where do we find choirs, pianists, soloists? Other creeds? Lord?s Supper served how often? etc." Where do we find all that musical stuff? In the Bible, where it was not only permitted, but ENCOURAGED. I see no prohibition placed on it by Jesus Christ nor the apostles, and yet the Churches of Christ want to add their commandments to those of Scripture. Other creeds? The Churches of Christ have a creed, whether it is written down or not. What is the official position on the role and mode of baptism? What do you believe concerning the Trinity? What about worship? When should the Lord's Supper be administered and how? Is the Lord's Supper the actual body and blood of Christ, a bare and symbolic memorial, or a sacrament that seals and confirms the partaker's place in God's household? What does the church consist of? What is the proper form of church government? What did Jesus' death and resurrection accomplish? Does Jesus possess two natures or one? Answer me these questions, and you will be telling me your creed. You wrote concerning Titus: "He was to ensure that wherever he went, IF men fell under those qualifications, that they are serving as elders" No, Paul told Titus (not a member of the church) to APPOINT elders, not to confirm that the existing elders possessed the proper qualifications. And even if he was just confirming, we still have an outside party exercising oversight of a songregation's leadership. Church councils? 'Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses." The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.' --Acts 15:1-6 What we have here is dissention between two parties regarding the government of the churches springing up among the Gentiles. Paul and Barnabas, apostles to the Gentiles, bring the matter before apostles and elders in JERUSALEM. Both sides apparently are heard, and James establishes a binding judgment in Jerusalem for the Gentiles and Jewish Christians both to adhere to. A delegation is sent to see to it that the Gentiles knew of the judgment in Jerusalem: "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." --Acts 15:28-29 |
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277 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50511 | ||
Now we at last see an answer from the Church of Christ as to what a denomination isn't. Let's take a look: "-It has the correct structure: Jesus as head (Eph 1:22-23); elders/deacons (Titus 1, 1 Tim 3)" So does my denomination. There are no other offices in my denomination. And it remains to be affirmed that Jesus Christ is truly the head of your "church." Lots of groups claim that. "-Acapella singing Eph 5:19" Let's see: "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;" --Ephesians 5:19 I see no prohibition of instruments here. In my denomination, I do everything mentioned in this verse. You are reading into the text. The whole of Scripture points out that use of instruments are not only permitted, but established and approved by the Lord (Psalm 150). "-Lord?s Supper observed every 1st day of the week Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 11:23, Acts 2:42" There are several denominations that do exactly this. And I think it is a preferred practice. So did John Calvin. However, there is no indication that Acts 20:7 is referring to the Lord's Supper. First Corinthians 11:23 says nothing about the timing of the Lord's Supper. Neither does Acts 2:42. What made you think these verses supported mandatory Sunday Lord's Suppers every week? "- Baptism for the remission of sins Acts 2:38 1 Peter 3:21" Another practice to be found in denominations. And, of course, we have enough posts on the role of baptism to evaluate the C of C view on it. Only one more left... "-Scriptural name Romans 16:16" One more time: "Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you." And my denomination is a church of Christ. Nowhere do I see that the churches were called "X" church of Christ. In fact, the common way to refer to the churches in the New Testament was "the church in [insert city name here]." That seems to be a much more biblical practice than "Main Street Church of Christ" or "Meadowlands Church of Christ." Perhaps you should repent of excluding the city name from your congregation, since that obviously was an apostolic practice... You wrote: "Again I ask, what part of that is human origin?" Most of it! Human misinterpretation at the least; commandments of men being given the same weight as commandments of God is a more accurate assessment. --Joe! |
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278 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50532 | ||
You wrote: "Who was Paul writing to in Ephesians 2? Was he not instructing the Gentiles that while prior to Jesus dying on the cross they had no hope for salvation, but now, through no effort of their own, God had (has) given them the opportunity?" Not exactly. Ephesians 2 speaks not of an opportunity, but an accomplished reality on the part of the Christians in Ephesus. Paul uses the word "formerly" to describe their previous state of existence (including himself in there, so obviously not referring exclusively to Gentiles). Ephesians 2:1-4 describes the unregenerate state of the Ephesians. The following three verses describe the transformation that has already taken place and their current state. It seems like a pretty completed task to me. Can our faith really be compared to a car which needs maintenance on our part so that it will not break down? I don't see that such an analogy is that great, but let's go with it. You assume that salvation is a gift to us that, once given, must be maintained by US. Let's see what the Bible says: "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." --Philippians 1:6 "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy" --Jude 24 "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." --1 Thesalonians 5:24 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." --Romans 8:29-30 "Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." --2 Peter 1:2-4 Certainly, there is an aspect of effort on our parts in our sanctification (with the grace that God gives us and the work of the Spirit in our lives and our wills), but it is quite clear from Scripture that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith, not us; and that it is God who is at work in us, to will and to work for His good pleasure. In other words, the Father not only gives the gift; He also is the one who ultimately maintains it. --Joe! |
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279 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50574 | ||
"We frequently hear that salvation is a free gift and there is nothing a person can do once he is saved to lose that salvation." I frequently read it, too, in the pages of Scripture. "But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." --Romans 6:23 "But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." --Romans 5:15-17 "giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." --Colossians 1:12-14 [Did we qualify ourselves? No. We were also rescued (His work) from darkness and transferred to Christ's Kingdom (we are already there; done deal)] "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." --Romans 8:29-30 [I don't see "our part" listed here. God initiates and completes EVERYTHING in salvation] You wrote: "That once a person accepts this gift he is saved from hell; will receive the Holy Spirit and will be sealed for eternity. This sealing in the religious world’s mind is something akin to freeze-drying food; once it is complete, that food will last forever!" Cute analogy again. How do the "Churches of Christ" interpret: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory." --Ephesians 1:13-14 We are adopted as SONS. We are sons of God as a result of His regenerating work. We are given the Holy Spirit as a pledge (God's promise) of our inheritance, when we believed. We are God's own possession (cf. 1 Peter 2:9-10). What else does the Bible say about our sonship? 'Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.' --Galatians 4:6-7 Again, we are heirs with Christ. From the "Satan's delusions" paragraph, the only one withw hich I disagree is this one: 'Thirdly, no work, or even more mildly, any effort is needed to obtain or maintain a person’s salvation once they have believed that Jesus died for their sins. "It is a free gift!"' We have already seen how it is a free gift, as Scripture tells us. In previous posts I have also shown that good works are the fruit of true repentance (i.e. true, saving faith will ALWAYS result in God-honoring works), but that they could never form the basis of our salvation in any part. Paul writes: "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" --Romans 4:4-5 If our works even maintain our salvation, then in some part we DESERVE our salvation, a concept that is 180 degrees opposite to the view that Scripture gives us. And if we "earn the wages" of righteousness, then we have room for boasting, don't we? Again, that is the error of the Pharisees and the Judaizers. "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" --Galatians 3:3 You wrote: "If we do not remain Faithful until death we will not be given the crown of life. See all of Rev 2:10 and furthermore" Absolutely correct. However, who enables His children and keeps them faithful until death? As we saw in my previous post, it is God working in us to preserve us. It is God who works saving faith in the hearts of His children, and it is God who causes his children to remain faithful. Obedience is a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5), not a means of gaining it or maintaining it. --Joe! |
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280 | need for a bible-anyone | Bible general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 50575 | ||
Just as a side note, I find it telling that you did not address in the slightest the verses I posted before. Typical "Church of Christ" response. I would love for you to go back and show me how those verses mean the opposite of what they directly say. I agree that apostasy is a reality for those in the visible church. My question is, knowing that you dishonor and disobey God on a daily basis, how much sin is too much for grace to compensate for? In other words, how do you know that you have not crossed the "disobedience line"? --Joe! |
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