Subject: RE: "immenint return" in first answer |
Bible Note: Lifer1J511 I'd like to ask not only Mike's, but your (and everyone else's who may read this debate) forgiveness in Christ, also, because, I truly have allowed my emotions to get the best of me in this debate. In response to your comment, I copied this message from a previous corrospondence; I have added an explanation or two of the comments, so if you have already read it, look for (**) before and after the new comments. I realize that in 2 Tim. and 2 Peter, Paul and Peter realized they were going to die and, at least in Paul's case he was already in prison probably with a death sentence so for him to foresee this is no huge surprise; Peter knew he was going to die from the Lords very mouth, so that does not mean he didn't believe in immanent return for all other believers. (John is the only other apostle that knew about Peter's destiny and John, I believe, taught immanent return.) I do not believe that Paul thought that he would die before the return of the Lord until the time of 2 Timothy! I believe there are several verses to suggest this is true the strongest examples are, Phil. 3:20, I Cor 15:51-52, and Thes. 4:15. Philippians 3:20, "For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:" (Paul using "we" suggests that he is also waiting and expecting the Savior!) I Cor 15:51-52, "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (Paul, in the last section of verse 52 is comparing the dead being ‘raised' to the living being ‘changed' and he uses "we shall be changed." to include himself in the living.) Thes 4:15, " For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep." (Paul includes himself with those that will be alive when the Lord returns to rapture believers!) Other support by Paul includes: I Thes. 1:10, "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivereth us from the wrath to come." (Paul taught all his converts to be ‘waiting' for the Lord, this suggests expectation.) Titus 2:11-13, "For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world; looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (The Grace of GOD instructs us to ‘look for' the return of the Lord! Again, implying expectation.) I also believe that immanent return is taught by most of the apostles, not Paul exclusively. Heb 10:37, "For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry." (tarry or delay) Jas 5:8, "Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (hand or near) 1 John 2:28, "And now, my little children, abide in him; that, if he shall be manifested, we may have boldness, and not be ashamed before him at his coming." (Using "we" John believes the manifestation will happen while he is alive to have boldness! **My interpretation of this verse has been questioned, so I will try to defend it, I believe that when we die, WE GO to be with the Lord, I believe Paul teaches this clearly in Philippians 1:23, ‘But I am in a strait betwixt the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ; for it is very far better:' It seems to me, that Paul is strongly implying that if he would have died in prison, he would immediately GO and be with Christ. Why is that important? If John were not talking about the return of Christ when he used ‘we' in include himself, then Christ would not be manifested, but John would GO and be with the Lord, rather than the other way around. So, the fact that John includes himself being present and having boldness before Him he must be talking about if he were alive when Christ came, not when he died and went to be with the Lord. And, some might also suggest that John may have thought that he would live for an extended period of time because the Lord said that he might, but again, if that were the case he would use ‘I' not ‘we' to include people other than himself.**) **This comment made by our Lord** Rev 22:7, 12, 20; "And behold, I come quickly." ( Our Lord repeats this phrase in all three verses.) |