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NASB | Revelation 7:17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes." |
AMPLIFIED 2015 | Revelation 7:17 for the Lamb who is in the center of the throne will be their Shepherd, and He will guide them to springs of the waters of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes [giving them eternal comfort]." [Ps 23:2; Is 25:8; Ezek 34:23; Rev 21:4] |
Subject: What would prompt these tears? |
Bible Note: Greetings Rowdy! I will try this one more time my friend, simply because this issue is so important. First of all, in your introductory comment you said: "Tim, Hank, Mammapbs and BradK and anyone else who believes in this philosophy of salavation through Grace only, without works or being fruitful in God's vineyard, please explain to me the following." None of us ever said that a Christian would NOT be fruitful or have 'good works'. We said that we are not SAVED by being fruitful or having 'good works'. James 2 makes it clear that a real Christian WILL have the evidence to back up their claim to faith. Eph. 2:10 makes it clear that works are the result of faith. All we have tried to say over and over again is that we are not saved by works, which is not a philosphy, but the clear statement of Scripture - see Eph. 2:8-9, Gal. 2, and Romans 4. :-) Now, on to your questions. 1) Yes, I have been guaranteed a place in Heaven. But, Scripture also says that those who love Him will obey Him (John 14:15). So, when He says to witness, I witness - not to earn salvation, but because I love Him. When He says to assemble together, I do, - not to earn salvation, but because I love Him. 2) There are three important points that you seemed to have missed in John 15. a) The fruit is not produced by the vine, but by the branch (John 15:4-5). So, how can the fruitfulness of the vine be attributed as something that the branch does or does not do? b) John 15:5b says, "If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." This doesn't say that a true branch should bear fruit, or might bear fruit, but that it WILL bear fruit. Why? Because the vine is the source of the fruit, and if we remain in the vine - we cannot help but be fruitful. c) Finally, fruitfulness doesn't make us His disciples, but demonstrates that we ARE His disciples (John 15:8). 3) This question was a little murky, but I refer you to c) above. John 15:8 doesn't say "be fruitful so that you CAN be my disciples." It says, '...bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples." 4) This point is no problem for me, because I do believe that salvation can be REJECTED. I do not believe that a Christian can ever 'LOSE' his salvation, but it can willfully be given away. There is a difference. The whole concept of 'losing' one's salvation is based upon either earning one's salvation or keeping one's salvation through good works. This is unscrriptural. The one who 'gives' his salvation away, is not lost because of a sin he committed, but because He has rejected the only source of grace (see Heb. 6 and Heb. 10:26-31). 5) No where does Scripture say that believers will be judged at the Great White Throne. Rev. 20:11-15 speaks of the judgement of those who were dead, but all the believers had already been resurrected in Rev. 20:4-6. In fact, v. 6 specifically says that the 'second death' has no power over those who were resurrected. The 'second death' is Hell. So, let's be clear my friend. None of us is claiming that a Christian should not or will have good works and be fruitful. All we are saying is that good works, fruitfulness, faithfulness, or any other thing will not and cannot save us. We are not saved by anything except acceptance of the finished work of Christ on the cross. The fruitfulness, the faithfulness, and the good works are all results of salvation, not a means of salvation. Finally, since every word is important, allow me to ask you one question. If we have to 'do' something to be sure of salvation, how can any of the following verses be true? a) Rom. 5:1 - "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," b) 1 Cor. 6:11 - "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Both of these verses speak of justification in the past tense. It is something which is already accomplished, not something that we have to hope will be accomplished. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |