Results 61 - 80 of 84
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Results from: Notes Author: Suede67 Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
61 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93494 | ||
Ken, ...or are you one who has a form of Godliness but denies it's power?... No. Preterists openly acknowledge the power, we understand that Christ DID have victory, then and forever. And through His victory, we have victory. Take care, SUEDE |
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62 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93490 | ||
Hi Rextar, Good question. Yes, I do observe it, and I think it is important for Christians to observe it. There is an active debate within Preterism about it right now, but I think it's an important reminder of Christ's covenant with us. Is it crucial for salvation? No. But, I do think it's important to observe. Take care, SUEDE |
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63 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93485 | ||
Hi Hank, Thanks for writing, and note I am very careful in study. I'm a skeptic's skeptic. I grew up in Dispensationalism, very much where you are at. However, I often hit "difficulties" with it. The unBiblical gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week is just one. Jesus saying he'd be back in 40 years is another one. The sad thing is, NONE of these are "difficulties"; we make them difficult because we have incorrect theology. You won't find a more conservative theologian then me, I'm no liberal, and being a Preterist is FAR from being liberal. Whether we like it or not, the Bible is full of symbolism. Sorry, it just is. I know as humans we are so in love with our flesh, and that's ultimately tragic to doctrine. I understand Preterism is hard, but again, too bad. Doctrine MUST match up the Bible, otherwise it's wrong. When Adam and Eve died in the Garden of Eden, did they die physically?? No, they didn't. It was a spiritual death, and THAT is what God was going to save mankind from. That is what Jesus conquered. Paul states in Romans that man is set to die and then be Judged. We will all physically die, believer and non believer alike. But, not all of us will spiritually die, believers do have eternal life. There are no verses to indicate salvation by the flesh, or of the flesh. Your soul and spirit is what lives on, thanks to Jesus. The problem is PreMill emasculate's the church. One it's bad exegis, and two it tells people not to do anything cause Jesus is come back and make it all better. Jesus did come back, and is reigning forever. We will win, because he already has won. Or is there something left for him to do? Preterism is weird, at first. Again, I was not raised a Preterist, but if you would like to discuss it, I would love to do that with you. Take care, SUEDE |
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64 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93480 | ||
That's ok, I understand Preterism is to shocking for someone, so I'll leave it at that. However, the Bible is not entirely literal, and the Prophets did often speak poetically to convey God's message. Take care, SUEDE |
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65 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93479 | ||
Dairy, if it is incorrect, you should be able to prove it. Also, for the record there is no split of time between Daniel's 69 and 70th week. That split is something Premillenialists have to add to the scripture to make Premillenialism work. However, Daniel did not split or divide his weeks. Something to consider. Take care, SUEDE |
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66 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93367 | ||
Hi Ken, ...I thought we were speaking of a face to face experience with Christ and our 'knowing as we are known' and not what we PRESENTLY experience. That is what the scripture says, correct... We are, but you desire a physcial fulfillment, which I do not see as Biblically correct. The Pharisees very much wanted a physical fulfillment as well, but they were corrected. ...Perhaps you should examine what "ages" mean... Well, I have, but what is your take on Ages? ...Well I guess you'll have to come up with some scripture to support that theory... Olivet Discourse plus 1 Cor 13:8. ...When Peter said that the promise is for all that are afar off, means me. Guess what? .....He was right.... Yes, he was right. We are able to partake in the promise. BUT, so were Christians in the first century too. All believers, then, now and forever are able to partake in the promise. Take care, SUEDE |
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67 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93365 | ||
Hi Darcy, ...I have no idea what a preterist... A preterist is a person who views prophecy as a past fulfillment. A Futurist on the other hand believes in the future events that will fulfill prophecy. ...is but I still want to know ,Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Ghost is no longer our comforter... No He still is, Preterism doesn't deny that. ...You are ignoring the root of the question, in 2nd Tim 3;14-17,I hold to be true... Preterism doesn't deny that either. ...I dont mind a good discussion so long as it is based on fact. Again where is it in scripture that all gifts stopped.... Well, Preterism is right up your alley then. You won't find a more factual eschatological system. In short you must understand the Two Ages spoken of in the Bible. There is no easy verse about gifts ceasing, you have to know that those did not pass into the next Age which we are in and will be in forever. This is where 1 Cor 13:8 comes into play. Paul clearly states that gifts will cease. Ok, now it's a question of when? The Age Paul was still living in, or in our age that goes on forever? Again, we know gifts will cease, which age? The temporary age which passed, or the the Age we are in which is forever. We can see that it was in the Age that passed that gifts ceased. Study up on the Two Ages, it will help out greatly. Take care, SUEDE |
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68 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93361 | ||
Hey Darcy, Isaiah is a prophet and prophets tend to speak very poetically. The lamb laying down, and all that stuff is symbolic. It was very much an error of the Pharisees to believe in a PHYSICAL delieverance, all the while their souls are what needed delievering. This unfortunately is the exact same error of the Church. We love our flesh, that's for sure. Also, the verse showing the spirit of God being poured out is symbolic as well, or do we expect to literally see a Spirit being poured out? You can't jump from symbolic to literal in the same verse, that's not good exegsis. To cut to the chase here, you probably think that by the time we reach the later parts of Revelation, all is well. New Jerusalem comes down, and there's a Tree that can heal the nations, and a literal stream of water of life and all that. Peace on earth, right? Not really. See even after New Jerusalem comes to earth, something's not quite right. Something remains outside the city. See Revelation 22:15. ...As I think amillennial or postmennial views harms the Church in a big way. First it takes aweay the promice of Jesus' second coming, thus not giving us any hope on this earth. thus no need for us to be here.... Though I'm neither of those views, neither of those views deny Christ's second coming. ...I am still waiting on that blessed hope... And it came, just as promised. But I don't want to be a stumbling block for you, eschatology isn't crucial to salvation, only grace and faith are, so I don't want to scare you away from that. Take care, SUEDE |
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69 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93340 | ||
Hi Tim, ...One of my primary concerns is accuracy in our statements about what Scripture says. So, I highlighted your '40' years remark. There are two problems with your statement. First of all, the term '40 years' is never used... In a literal sense, no, it's not. However, a Jew telling other Jews in the first century that he would return in a generation would have been understood as a 40 year time frame. We tend to modernize the Bible and come up with odd interpretations when we do. The BIG explaination used by futurists is that Generation means a race of people. This is the kind of silliness I mean. ...Secondly, Mt. 24:34 refers to 'this generation', but which generation is He refering to?... Take it into context. Jesus meant that generation that was alive when he was speaking. If I were to say "this is the greatest year ever", do I mean 2005? Or 1995? No, time context when the statement made is 2003. Same thing. Jesus said "This generation", as in the 1 st century. ...It could very well be the generation alive when the things mentioned occur.... And it did! All those things mentioned DID occur in the first century. ...Whether we agree on our approach to eschatology or not, it simply isn't true that Christ said He would return within 40 years... Yes it is true, our 21st minds though fail to realize this at times. Jesus was very much a 1st century Jew, and was using language of that time. Hundreds of years from now, what will be think when we say someone "kicked the bucket", or "bought the farm". ...Finally, concerning Acts 1:9-11, verse 9 says that He went up 'before their eyes, and then the cloud hid Him. So, verse 11 must also be refering to a visible return since it says that He would return in the same way. So, I don't agree that the preterist position is in harmony with Acts 1:9-11.... But then the "burden of proof" is on you. Why does every other verse state coming in clouds? And why does Jesus himself say he will return as fast as lightning? Hardly a slow visible descent the way the apostles saw him him ascend for a moment. Is this a Bile difficulty? No. Acts matches up only if we acknowldge the clouds in the other verses, like Rev 1:7. The angels were telling the apostles about the clouds. It's not so much the verses we do list, it's what we DON'T list that matters. Take care, SUEDE |
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70 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93339 | ||
Hey Tim, ...I did check your response to Darcy. My short response would simply be this, there is a difference between 'believing' that the gifts have ceased and Scripture saying that they 'have' ceased... Yes, and they have in fact ceased. Time indicators within the NT indicate to a nearness, as in within Paul's lifetime. (though he was martyred) See 1 Cor 15:51. 1st Century Christian look for Christ to come back in their lifetime. Why? Because that is exactly what was going to happen...unless the Bible is wrong that is. ...You also said that Christ said that He would return in 40 years. Scripture never says this either. We have to be very careful when we say that Scripture 'says' something, if we are only referring to what we think Scripture means... Actually it does say that, but you have to know a bit of theology to understand that a generation to a Jew would mean 40 years. Does Jesus say in a literal sense, "I'll be back in 40 years". No, he does not. He says he'll be back in a generation, i.e 40 years. I do agree in being careful when claiming scripture says something, but I also leave scripture to interpret itself. Generation is one of those things. I know this view is difficult cause we as Christians are taught this theology now days. But this wasn't always the case. I do hope we can futher discuss it though, Take care, SUEDE |
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71 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93337 | ||
Hey Ken, ...I've heard all that before and it still can't be reconciled with what Paul was stating... Well, it's really going to depend on what your take on Ages is, and when these Ages start and stop. That's truly paramount to understand Paul, if not the whole Bible. ...He says ALL knowledge will cease when we see Jesus ..face to face... But what is this knowledge? That's important. We know from 1 Cor 1:20 that he does says the wisdom of that particular Age was foolish. To me, this makes sense that it would pass. ...So I must ask you why you feel the need to continue to learn after you are informed by Jesus Christ as to the sum of all knowledge?.. Well, that's the kind of person I am. But not that Christ did say we are to be like a child. For we are saved by Grace alone, not by how smart we are. ...A joint heir will know all things as He knows all things, correct?... No. God reveals things to us as He choses. You know that Christ is the only way. That is really it, that's all you need. But, I believe that Christ does in fact reveal things to us still. To spread the Gospel, we need to know the Gospel. .....Ergo, knowledge will cease...And since the gifts are for the edifying of the Disciple and the edifying of the Disciple's church, they will also cease to be needed....but only then will they cease to be needed... Well, that's one way of looking at it. I still hold to ceassation around 70 AD though. Take care, SUEDE |
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72 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93329 | ||
Hey Tim, ...Where exactly does Scripture say that Christ would return in 40 years?... Olivet Discourse. We know from the OT, that a generation to the Jews is 40 years, Jesus said he would be back in one generation. ...I can't speak to the organ music and the choir, but what did the angels say in Acts 1 after Christ ascended to Heaven? Acts 1:11 - "'Men of Galilee,' they said, 'why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." Now, how did Jesus go into Heaven? Acts 1:9 says, "After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight."... Actually, these verse DO mesh with what Jesus said, and of course with Preterist eschatology. We know that Jesus "went" into heaven behind a cloud. That's key. For how is He coming? Let the Bible tell us. Mattew 26:24 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory." What does this mean? Coming in clouds invokes OT prophets that poetically spoke of God coming in clouds of Judgement. We can further see this here, Revelation 1:7 "BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen." Another thing we can ask is, how fast will this coming be? A slow descent? No. Matthew 24:27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be." cf Luke 17:24 His coming was that quick. Take care, SUEDE |
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73 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93328 | ||
Ken, ...What SUEDE wrote, "but I have never seen a Biblical proof from them past 70 AD. Gifts were for the early Church and ceased, just like Paul said they would. Take care," What Ken wrote "Hmmm. Last time I looked 'Knowledge' was a gift. ...Lets see... then there is "Faith". Hmmm??... Let's deal with faith first. Faith is gift like grace, quite different then tongues or prophecy, and not what people would be speaking about if they were referring to spiritual gifts. Knowledge mentioned in 1 Cor 13:8 seems to coincide with what Paul wrote earlier in 1 Cor 1:20 which is the wisdom of that Age; an Age that would shortly be passing. Paul writes that wisdom of that Age, or the Age he was still in, was foolish. It makes sense then that it is that type of knowledge or wisdom that would be passing. It makes zero sense to assume that intelligence will pass, or would have passed, with the coming of Christ. That particular portion in 13:8 has boggled Theologians as the passing of "knowledge" or wisdom doesn't make sense in any Age, before or after the Return of Christ. Most likely Paul meant the knowledge, or wisdom of the Age they were fixing to come out of. However, if you have a take on knowledge passing I'd be more then willing to hear it. Take care, SUEDE |
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74 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93324 | ||
Hey Darcy, ...If perfection has come, why is there more sin in this world than probably ever... That's actually a bit of speculation on your part. Remember, during the 1st century, there was literally worldwide paganism. That is not true today. Though it seems like the the world is worse due to the Media, Christianity is spreading like a brush fire in the southern hemisphere. ...as the bible states in Matthew 24:37, "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah." Notice that it says "the coming" not "when I am here"... Yes, Christ's coming caught people off guard. It shouldn't have as they were forewarned, but it did none the less. ...As far as I am concerned in this day and age is far from perfection,.. I agree with you, and I'm certainly not saying the world is perfect. ...and the bible states very clearly that when he returns to earth this world will be perfect... Are you sure? ..What we refer to as the Lord's prayer You honestly think all this sin in the world today is his will?.. No, it's not his will, it's counter to it. But that's not a sign of Him not being here. There was great sin abound when Christ was in the flesh. ..The bible states that satan is the "god of this world" (2cor 4:4) In order to believe what you do you would have to say this verse is no longer true.. That's correct. Look at this, Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. Paul was telling people that were alive in the first century that God was fixing to crush Satan under THEIR feet. ..and if that is the case why is there still sin?.. Why would there not be? Sin came in via Adam, people today still have sin nature, they always will. We as humans are our own problem. Our sin nature is why there is sin in this world. ..In Rev 1:7, "BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him," I personally have never seen Him... Yes you have, you aren't realizing it though. You desire to see Him in the flesh, that's all. But He's here, you see Him in fellow Christians. ..How could Jesus clearly tell His disciples that He would be back in 40 years? When He didn't know Himself. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." (Mat. 24:36).. Actually, the answer is in that verse. Jesus as a man did NOT know the day or hour. But he did know it would happen within 40 years. That's the difference. ..Explain to me if Jesus came back 40 years after He left in Acts 1 why is it that John wrote the book of Revelation which clearly states the day of the Lord and the day of perfection when John didn't write the book until after 90 probably closer to 95 AD? John didn't write Revelation in 90 or 95 AD. That's a incorrect date, that unfortunately hinders people. A more correct date is between 60 AD and 67 AD. I can give you some info on this if you like. ...Out of the book of Acts and Revelation? show me.... Acts is easy, there's nothing to state that we are IN the Book of Acts. Acts is very much a historical book of the early, early church. Revelation was given to John to warn the early Christians that everything they had been taught over the past 40 years was in fact coming to a head. He warned seven literal churches that he probably established and warned the Christians in Jerusalem that they were to leave the Harlot of Babylon. That's right, Jerusalem was the Harlot of Revelation and was judged in 70 AD, again just as God said he would. ...The bible states in 1pet 2:24 I guess that verse no longer applies according to your theology... No it still does. I in no way remove Christ or His sacrifice for us the undeserving. ..Just one more thought. If the gifts have ceased where do you draw the line. At salvation? or has that GIFT ceased as well?.. Salvation is a gift from God in the form of grace. However, "gifts" or spiritual gifts typically imply tongues, prophecy, and perhaps healing. That's what most mean by "gifts". Has grace passed. Never. Have gifts like tongues passed? Yes. ..Also have you ever gotten a cold or the flu? And are no longer sick? If healings have ceased tell me this how are you cured?... Yes, our natural body has obvious failures. And we can heal those on natural terms, i.e. medication. Now, can God heal people? Yes, he's God. But is this still a valid common gift found in Christians? Not really. Healing is a tough one. Now as far as tongues and prophecy go, yes, without a doubt and full authority those have passed. Thanks for asking question, I hope you have more and will contiune the dialog, I'm enjoying it and I hope you are too, take care, SUEDE |
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75 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93303 | ||
Hey Retxar, Sorry this is a late response. 1 Cor 13:8 shows us that gifts will cease. At the time of 1 Cor 1:7 spritual gifts were very much abound still. Both 13:8 and 1:7 show us that they cease upon Christ's return. Now it's just a matter of when you feel Christ will or has returned. Take care, SUEDE |
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76 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93301 | ||
Hi Darcy, ...Just curious if you are referring to 1 Cor 13:8 were paul writes and says the tongues, prophecy, and knowledge will cease but Agape love won't cease?... Yes I was. ...Because if that is the verse you are referring to, you are taking out of context because in verse 10 it says "but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away." We live far from a perfect world. Perfection won't come until Jesus our Lord and Savior comes back to sit on the throne of David.... Brace yourself, I'm NOT taking that verse out of context. Perfection has come, just like He said He would. Shocking? It shouldn't be. His disciples flat out ask Jesus when he is going to return and Jesus flat out tells them within 40 years. Jesus IS on the Throne, again, just like he said. ...One more thing in Revelation 19:10 It says that the testimony of Jesus Christ IS the spirit of prophecy. If prophecy has ceased you would also have to say that Jesus' testimony has also ceased since it is the spirit of prophecy.... Yes, the testimony of Jesus is the SPIRIT of prophecy. That's correct. Now, that was more apt back when John wrote Revelation, but still today as we preach the Gospel. Only for us, it's not really prophetic, it's a reality, it did happen. ...One more thing people who believe the gifts have not ceased aren't all charsmatic... That is true, but most aren't far from it. ...I do not believe that Satan or another spirit will heal the afflicted and bring people to Jesus, only the Holy Spirt can and will do that... I agree, but one, who says those people really needed to be healed. And two, I don't deny that God is all powerful, He does as He pleases. However, spiritual gifts as a whole have passed, again, just as the Bible says. ...If you read the book of Acts you will find that the book doesn't end. It doesn't end because we are in the book of Acts... This may be shocking, but we are out of Revelation! We are not in Acts by a long shot, haven't been there for almost 2,000 years, haven't been in Revelation for basically 1,900 years. I'm sure you don't know how to react right now, but hopefully your curiousity has spiked. Take care, SUEDE |
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77 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93300 | ||
Hey Tim, Sorry this is a late response, still getting used to the lay out here. Yes, the other person said it correct, 1 Cor 13:8 shows that all but Love will cease. I'll go into more depth on the response initally given to you by Darcy. Take care, SUEDE |
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78 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93299 | ||
Hi Steve, no problem jumping in late either, I do it way too often myself! I'm glad 1 Corinthians 13:8 caught your eye. That one verse, and the few surrounding it, has troubled many a theologian. The sad thing is, it doesn't have too! Let me put it to you like this, there are no such things as Bible difficulties!! There is only Theology Difficulties. The Bible doesn't have a problem, our theology does. We want the Bible to fit our theology, instead of having our theology fit the Bible. ...Are you suggesting that "then" has already come? Has the event that Paul referred to - "when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears" - has already happened? Has perfection already come a second time? ... Yes, but know that it is not I that suggests, it's the Bible that tells. Let me drop this on you cause you seem ready to hear it, Christ told his disciples that he would return in 40 years. And he said his return would be a like a flash of lightning. People want to physically see Christ coming down from the sky with organ music playing and a heavenly choir. Very theatric, but not Biblically correct. If Christ did NOT return in 40 years, He was a liar and is therefore NOT the Messiah. Now, personally, I'm not going to say that. ...That is when gifts such as prophecy and tongues will disappear. 1 Corinthians 13 makes perfect sense apart from any discussion of whether or not God has suspended spiritual gifts... Yes, and this too makes sense with the rest of the Bible. Ok, there's two ages listed in the Bible, as far as the NT goes. Check it out for yourself. The apostles state that there is this Age, which was the Age relevant to THEIR lifetime, and then the Age to come, which is relevant to OUR lifetime and has be relevant since 70 AD. The Ages was the passing of the OT covenant into the NT Covenant. We are now in the eternal Covenant. Think about it like this, why do we need prophesy anymore? What on earth is left to tell? ...I'd be interested to know what you think the Holy Spirit is supposed to do "in" us. It seems to me that anything he is likely to do "in" me will probably manifest itself in some outward way - as a gift of the spirit.... Yes, the Holy Spirit, i.e. God IS in you. Your body is His temple and He dwells in you. And Paul tells us that Love is now the gift that remains. It is the only apt gift now when you think about it. You see, gifts like healing and prophesy were there to edify the early church, which desperately needed these things. Remember, Rome and Paganism was against it, but also the non Believing Jews were as well, which is equaling depressing. The early church needed something to show that it was the ONE true faith. Gifts provided that. Remember, all the prophets, and Jesus himself, could perform miracles. Why? To show that they were from God in a time of trouble. Now God IS here. Satan IS under our feet. Satan has been defeated, just like the Bible says. Gifts aren't needed anymore, we have full authority here. Now, we need to go spread the Gospel and tell the people the good news!! We win, because Christ won, just like the Bible tells us. Take care, SUEDE |
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79 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93298 | ||
Well, I guess the question to ask is, why would gifts make you a first or upper class Christian? It wouldn't. Again, I'm a Preterist, so I view the Bible within in context of the 1st century. I wish more did, it makes more sense. God IS with us, now and forever. He never left. He's here, all around, so is the Kingdom of God. Too often we fail to recognize Him and it. If gifts can be done away with do to unbelief, are they really from God then? I wouldn't think so. Take care, | ||||||
80 | Why little sign of power in our churches | Mark 16:17 | Suede67 | 93177 | ||
Hi there, I think the reason that there's not "powerful works" as in gifts, is because they aren't available anymore, and have not been for a very long time. It was only til under 200 years ago that American churches started to bend towards more charsmatic views on the Bible. Sadly, it seems that study of the Word of God went away, and speaking in jibber jabber came in. This also seems to coincide with the rise of Dispensationalism, Cults like SDA, JWs, and Christian Zionism; none of which are Biblically supported. However, since people have stopped reading and studying the Bible, these things are "acceptable". I personally urge people to return to their Bibles and do some serious study. Leave "tongues" alone, and "healing" and Prophecy. This things have ceased, just like the Bible tells us. Take care, |
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