Results 41 - 54 of 54
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: Treadway Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
41 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51796 | ||
Hello Tim: Tim wrote; A literal statement would be: "I will come back in your lifetime". But, Scripture never says that does it? My concession: This is true, and must be conceded. Interesting that it is not stated, but then, that would be a book all unto itself. So many facets and loose ends to tie in order to establish reasons and purpose. An investigator would have to address motive, mainly, and considering the mystery of who wrote, when did they write, who chose what from how many other writings, etc., that would be a monumental undertaking to acquire knowledge about “in your lifetime.” Not that it wouldn’t be well worth it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, since that investigator won’t be me, back to “soon”. Let’s see what a “reasonable and prudent” person might think concerning IMPLICATION. Mark 9: 1 Jesus went on to say to his disciples, “Some of you who are standing here right now will live to see the Kingdom of God arrive in great power!” Now the reasonable and prudent questions: What does Jesus mean? Are there any implications? If paraphrased, what would be a good way to do it? Based upon Mark 9:1 Some answers to agree or disagree with: 1. Some disciples will still be living when Jesus returns. Agree Disagree 2. Jesus is talking about returning within the lifetime of some of the disciples. Agree Disagree 3. It is clear that Jesus does not mean He will return in the lifetime of his disciples. Agree Disagree 4. It is unclear what Jesus is talking about. Agree Disagree 5. A good way to paraphrase Mark 9:1 would be: Jesus really should not have said this to the disciples because only God knows the day and hour of Jesus’s return. Agree Disagree 6. Another way to paraphrase; Although Jesus does not actually say that he’ll be returning in the lifetime of the disciples, that’s what he means. Instead of saying, “will live”, Jesus could have said “in your lifetime” and the meaning would have been exactly the same. Agree Disagree. Note: agreements or disagreements should be based solely upon the TEXT as it is written. Treadway :) |
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42 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51810 | ||
Dear Hank ane (Tim): Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful views. I will certainly file them away for later use and perusal. And since Tim "seconds" what you say, they must be accorded more time and study. -------------------------------------------- A couple of points: when you suggest that "skeptics" love to prove the Bible false, that may be true, but there are others with no agenda but that of trying to find out what is going on. As you also say, throughout the ages there have been several interpretations, just of this one statement of Jesus. This reality would demand, it seems to me, investigation. As far as "proving", that is a heavy burden, indeed, but one that does not fall upon the "skeptic". That burden rests squarely on the shoulders of the asserter (not sure that's a word). ----------------------------------------------- A "SOON" summation: the idea of soon, near, imminent, is not just sprinkled throughout the NT--the NT is flooded with those words and ideas. A person would be remiss not to inquire "why"? For example, if these folks were NOT expecting the Return, yes, within their lifetime, then why use these terms? Rather than "soon", why not use words like, "eventually", "may", "could", even the word "will" return, with no dangling "soon". Instead of saying the end of the world is "near" or "approaching", why didn't they say "inevitable"? When the idea of soon comes out of so many mouths, it cannot be ignored. Maybe like trying to sweep an elephant under a rug--everyone still can see that it's an elephant. --------------------------------------------- What you say about Mark 9:1 may very well be true. But I would be better swayed if it stood alone, apart, and had no further corroboration from the rest of the NT. There are many steps to this journey; Mark 9 is the first. Now on to the second.....to be continued.. But coffee, now :) Treadway |
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43 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51829 | ||
Hello Tim: Brevity response:? You say: Therefore, they often, as Jesus put it of the Pharisees, 'strain at gnats and swallow camels' This train of thought about the second coming strikes me as the same kind of strained argument on the part of some to disprove the Bible. My Reply: Just shows how different people see different things. I would be hard pressed, indeed, to equate the “pie” example with whether or not The 2nd Coming was aimed for the 1st Century AD. In fact, once I discovered all this, quite by accident, and then began to leisurely read the NT, the trail seemed to get hotter. What if this 2nd Coming conjecture were true? What would it mean? Would it mean the beginnng of the end for me, as far as religion? Or, would it mean starting over? Rethinking? Would there be a domino effect, or just simply answers? Would those answers wind up, finally, to THE ANSWER? And how to know THE ANSWER (or any answers) unless questions are asked? As you may have guessed, I am a layman, and my approach is simpler than what is usually denoted “scholarly”. But my layman’s questions carry just as much weight and concern (in my opinion) as those of the more erudite apologist or skeptic. I don’t mean to say that I dismiss those opinions (if I understand them) but feel my approach is as valid, since most of us probably fall into the layman category, And as for the interest in the 2nd Coming being in the “gnat” variety, I don’t think so. In fact, the more I muse, the more I see, the more convinced that if there is anything that could be the “heart of the matter”, this is it. No matter which side of the fence it falls, a WHOLE lot is riding on it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You say: 2) 'Soon'! We have touched on this issue several times, but from whose perspective should we view 'soon'? Differing contexts and differing perspectives produce differing definitions and/or expectations. A child has very little patience and 'soon' had better be in the next couple of seconds! :-) A college student realizes that graduating 'soon' maybe in the next couple of years. In geological terms, a small ravine may 'soon' be a giant canyon. My reply: The four letter words, “Soon”, “near,” are this complicated? Reasonable and prudent people cannot agree on what soon and near mean in context? For example look at 1 John 1: 18 “Dear children, this world’s last hour has come.” “…has…” come. “has”. Is that unclear? Either the world’s last hour has, or has not, come. One could even go past “soon” and suggest there is an implication of “imminent”. But even without that extreme, surely reasonable people could agree that if someone says “has”, he means what he says. Had I, personally, been the recipient of this letter, or had John told me this in person, I would have known he was speaking of the “now” in my lifetime. Would this be unreasonable? Then the context of the rest: “You have heard about the Antichrist who is coming—the one who against Christ—and already many such persons have appeared. THIS MAKES US ALL THE MORE CERTAIN THAT THE END OF THE WORLD IS NEAR.” What other context is there in this? What is there that reasonable people could not agree upon? Is this an example of the “child, student, ravine”? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You say: 1) Don't read too much in to a word which is very subjective! My reply: I cannot see how “soon’s” meaning is “very” subjective, in the commonly held layman sense. If that were so, then its use would almost be rendered useless. It wouldn’t make sense for the authors of the NT to use the term if they knew, as you suggest, that nobody really knows what “soon” is supposed to mean. In fact, when they used it, wouldn’t they have been sure, then, to explain what they meant? Or, do they expect the listener and readers to understand? I think, reasonably and prudently, the authors expected them to understand. Anything can be “intellectualized” to an extreme. I recall a friend who had been introduced to metaphysics, and for days walked around his Air Force base, wondering if he really existed or not. Kind of like: what does soon mean? If one wants to go into a myriad relativities, he will forever be asking: what does soon mean? To be continued..... |
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44 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51830 | ||
Hello Tim: (continuing...) You say: 2) Don't make a literal statement out of an assumption about the meaning of a word! My Reply: A word can have a literal meaning: my dictionary says soon means: before long; without undue time lapse; promptly. If I said to someone that I was going to die soon, would that mean to them in 10 years? 5? 20? 2 years? Or, would reasonable people, in general, have the same idea of soon? Would those reasonable people have a much narrower concept than those spans? And recall, it is not just a one time word. It permeates the NT, from The Good News is Coming Soon!, to REV: I am coming soon!” You say: . However, He never said that! (..that he was coming back in the 1st century…) My reply: This has been your strongest point, without question. But then, you must be willing to address what he did say. And then you must be willing to ask what he meant. You must be willing to ask if anything is implied. If Jesus said to his disciples in Matthew 16: 27-28, “For I, the Son of Mankind, shall come with my angels in the glory of my Father and judge each person according to his deeds. AND SOME OF YOU STANDING RIGHT HERE NOW WILL CERTAINLY LIVE TO SEE ME COMING IN MY KINGDOM.” Incidentally, this is even stronger than Mark 9. Even though Jesus does not say “in your lifetime”, what else could he mean? Again, a layman is asking: what does Jesus mean when he tells his disciples he is coming back and some of them will live to see it? Is it unreasonable that a layman can construe that the context is what it is? Is it not prudent to read this over and over, and still see the same thing? You say: It is dangerous to build an entire arguement on the truth or falsity of the Bible based upon nothing more than an assumption about how long a time is a reasonable time for 'soon'! ;-) My reply: Not at all. Again, this could be the “heart of the matter.” “Falsity” would be a worse case scenario. But, after going through each one, after sequentially listing them, and paying close attention to context, in order to establish the minds’ intents, some doubts may arise. I suppose my main premise would be that no stone should be unturned.. How else to know? Sometimes I waver, but mostly I feel I will be back in the FOLD. And can’t explain that feeling. But until then, I think I owe it to myself to make sure I’m right—then go ahead—even if I’m wrong. J ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You say: God Bless you my friend! Hopefully, we will be able to interact 'soon' on some other issues as well! My reply: Well, not so sure about that. Just what does soon mean? Might mean tomorrow for you, but 2 years from now for me…….Treadway |
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45 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51907 | ||
2nd Coming? Yes, no, or maybe? As some on this forum have noted, I have a healthy (or unhealthy, depending upon their views) concern that Jesus will not be coming back, as promised. I’ve tried to outline many verses, from those that provide “doubt”, to those, which seem to me, provide bona fide evidence. Instead of rehashing the same verses, this will be a final summation, if you will, with only indirect mention of where the support criteria may be found. (But if anyone should want to know “specifically” the verse (s), just ask) To some, this pursuit has been deemed the importance of a gnat’s existence in the universe, and that well may be true. But on the other hand, it well may not be true, and from a tiny acorn, a mighty oak does grow. From the very beginning of the NT to its very end, “Soon” is chronicled. “The Good News is Coming Soon!” A sense of urgency permeates throughout the NT. “Expectation” thrives. “Warnings” abound. Peter, Paul, and John are caught up in the clouds of “soon.” Repeatedly, they tell their followers (mainly Jewish Christians) that the end of the world is near. Paul tells the Corinthians, “…the world in its present form will soon be gone.” Christ (God), if it may be recalled, speaks through Paul. Peter echoes the theme when he declares, “…the end of the world is coming soon.” Peter is explicit, too, when he tells the Jewish Christians living in Asia Minor, that this end will occur during their lifetime. John is no less adamant, no less specific: “ …this makes us all the more certain that the end of the world is near.” No wonder, then, when Revelations is written, this urgent message is at the fore. When writing the letter to the seven churches, Revelation’s author pulls few punches as he stresses that, “…the future activities soon to occur in the life of Jesus Christ…” and, “…the time is near when these things will all come true.” He begins his letter with this attention getting “soon” and he ends the message with: “I am coming soon!” “…this will happen soon…” “…for the time of fulfillment is near…” “See, I am coming soon…” and “Yes, I am coming soon!” Consistent with the notion of “soon,” is his thinly veiled puzzle of the BEAST. Since the Greek language accorded a numerical value to names, the triple sixes is representative of the Roman Emperor, Nero. This ruler was, indeed, considered to be a Beast to the Jews, a ruler who persecuted them unmercifully. In the Hebrew version, the number is listed as six-one-six, and when translated, also represents Nero. That would put the concerns of Revelation squarely with his own present day. (to be continued...) Treadway |
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46 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51910 | ||
2nd Coming? Yes, no, or maybe? continuing from the previous post... Why are Paul, Peter, John and the author of Revelations so convinced that the time of the 2nd Coming is at hand? Obviously there had to be a seed, or seeds, planted for this belief (or feeling) to grow to the proportions that it seemed to have grown. And isolating the sowing is not too difficult a task. It begins with Jesus: The Kingdom of heaven (The Good News) is near. And it stays with Jesus. He tells his disciples, point-blank, that some of them will live to see his return. When he commissions them, sending them out into the countryside, he reiterates the message: “…announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near.” He tells the disciples to expect trouble, but tells them that if they endure to the end they shall be saved. He tells them that when persecuted, to flee to the next city, and the next. Then He tells them that before they reach all of the cities, before there are no other places to go, He will return. In context, he must be speaking of His return in the disciples' lifetime. In the Sermon on the Mount of Olives, Jesus echoes his previous statements concerning the End. Note the very personal interest of the disciples in wanting to know about the “signs”. Jesus is specific when he addresses the disciples with the pronoun, “you”. “You (the disciples) will be tortured…" “…many of you (the disciples) will fall back…” “…when you (the disciples) see the horrible thing standing in the temple…” “…when you (the disciples) see all these things, you (the disciples) can know that my return is near, even at the doors…” Many Christians who yearn for the return of Jesus will always point to the passage that says to be prepared because no one knows the day and hour, only God knows. This is the main tool that is used to somehow by-pass all the declarations of “soon”. And it may be a good tool. In my view, however, it is weak, extraordinarily weak when placed against the people in the NT who believe that Jesus will be returning within their own lifetime. In fact, a strong case exists, when taken in the context of the whole, the “…no one knows…” fits in quite nicely. Would the disciples want to know the exact day? You bet. Would they want the exact hour? Of course, they would. Is it logical that Jesus can give them a ballpark figure as to when they might expect his return? Sure. But that logic breaks down considerably when a day or hour is asked for. In summation: will Jesus return, as promised? Yes? Maybe? No? In the final analysis, it is up to the individual jury that resides in each of us. As for me, personally, I hope that no one accuses me of an “agenda”. I have none, other than wanting to sift through the bits and pieces, weigh them, measure them, sniff them, gather their DNA. As I previously posted, I was once a Baptist before I began to read the Bible. Although that may sound rather odd, I was one of those Christians who had never really read the Bible but just accepted what others told me about it. I have heard estimates that as much as 70 percent of Christians may fit into this category—but I don’t know. I know I did. Then someone challenged me to read it, really read it from stem to stern; to come to it with an opened mind. Pretend, he said, that you are an alien, and you are opening this Holy Book of these Christian Creatures for the first time…and see what happens. Currently, I am still reading….Treadway :) always good thoughts. |
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47 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51926 | ||
Hello Tim: You wrote: 1) The verse does not explain how this number is obtained or even what it means. Therefore, one must assume that the writer intended his readers to assign numerical values to the letters and add them up. This is a major assumption My reply: Gotta blame those "paraphasing" Bibles. The Living Bible and the book say: "...the numerical values of the letters in his name add to 666..." I'll note the sources. Howver, even in the KJV it says: "...let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast..." I assume these alternate Bibles took that to mean, "...those who are able..." Is it true? I don't know. Does it make sense? Does to me....Treadway :) |
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48 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51931 | ||
Hello Tim: You write: but where exactly did Jesus say point blank to His disciples, "Some of you will live to see Me return"? there is a big difference between a direct statement and a statement which you interpret to mean something. ;-) -------------------------------------------- Let's see what it says: KJV: Matthew 16: 27-28 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." The Book chose to say the above in this manner: Instead of having Jesus referring to himself in the 3rd person, the 1st person is used: "For I, the Son of Mankind, shall come with my angels in the flory of my Father and judge each person according to his deeds. And some of you standing right here now will certainly live to see me coming in my kingdom." Your question again: where does it say that some will live to see Jesus's return? Well, I just read the two passages again, and again. Guess I don't understand your interpretative problem? Treadway |
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49 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51934 | ||
Hello Tim: You write: "..who knows" concerning 666. True. But if true, that it was supposed to be Nero, then it does fit snugly into my theme. It's certainly not the end-all, but a part of a definite whole. Does it make sense? Maybe. Especially since numerical values were assigned, and some have deduced it to be Nero. Then take that with the reality of the "times" of Rev. and then compare the "soon" emphasis with the preceding NT. A case can be made. Does it sway your mind's jury? That's up to you.... Treadway |
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50 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51938 | ||
Greetings Tim: You say: So, my point is simply that Jesus does not specifically say that His disciples will see Him return. Scripture only says that they will see His kingdom coming in power. To what does that refer? That is debatable! ------------------------------- Everything is debatable. I just presented a position that makes sense to me, based upon my individual reading and understanding ablility. Personally I see no wriggle room. And, as I said, each person is the jury. I do know this: a LOT would be at stake if this were viewed as I have described. A lot of motive for keeping it ambiguous. But, at least, you are willing to recognize that it is "debatable". That is admirable.... Treadway :) |
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51 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51941 | ||
Hello Tim: You say: Do you see my problem? ---------------------------------------- Sure. After a "summation", it is always in the hands (minds) of the individual jury members. But I do wonder: what if "Nero" and 666 is true? How would that change perspectives? Would that destroy the Rapture industry, just for one of many changes.....but ah, that's a whole new avenue to travel....certainly no energy or time for that.... :) Treadway |
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52 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51949 | ||
Hello Hank: Just saw your post. And thanks again for the kind words and even kinder guidance. Personally, I've always liked the "...seek and ye shall find..." admonition. Another one, I heard or read somewhere is: "My heart cannot accept what my mind cannot believe." So, this search is quite ultimate. I don't know where it will wind up. In the middle right now, the doldrums, in limbo. I've haven't given up on pure faith, but I want to be sure there isn't anything that I've missed. In a way, faith is a kind of gamble and I guess I'm trying to "hedge" the bet. ...Treadway.... :) |
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53 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51973 | ||
Hello Hank: You asked if I "truly know the Lord?" ------------------------- At this particular stage of my life, I don't have the foggiest notion of how to answer. "In limbo" hasn't provided the luxury of decision or commitment. In legalistic terms, my jury is out, mulling over the arguments. A verdict could come, eventually, but then it could also be a "hung" jury, and that would probably mean a retrial. Once, when I did reside on the side of faith, I had no worries or doubts. I was completely confident in my belief, in my destiny. Unlike what I see a lot of on this forum, the discussions concerning "baptize or not", "hair-splitting salvation theories", all the "dueling verses", I had no such thoughts or concerns. I was going to Heaven, no doubt about it. But as I said, once the Bible reading began, it has been a whole new ball game. I'm not sure of the inning, maybe top of the 3rd, so there's a lot of game left. The cold water in the face was this: after reading a good deal of the Bible, I began to realize that my God had been, for all intents and purposes, one of my imagination. My God did not fit the Bible God. But through all this, I have come to know others in the same sinking boat, that the God of their worship is seldom aligned with the Bible. It makes you take a step back. Is that good or bad? Does it matter? Can it be adjusted? Is that where the concept of a "personal" God comes from? So, it's all been eye-opening. I knew next to nothing. Didn't even know about Dec. 25th, Easter, how Christianity actually came into being, what it consists of. It's a whole different world. :) always good thoughts Treadway ---------------------------- PS: as for the "..nothing to lose.." idea, I think that's is the Pascal doctrine, right? You know, when JEOPARDY has biblical questions, I've been doing quite well.... :) |
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54 | Who is the "Beast" in Revalation? | Revelation | Treadway | 51673 | ||
Hello Grace: Don't know if this idea or theory is "old news", but I once read that many believe that the "666" beast is meant to be none other than the most feared Roman of all--Nero. Since names in certain languages were also assigned a numerical value, the numerical value of Nero was 666. The number for the Beast in Hebrew was found not to be 666, but 616 (if I recall). 616 was also the numercial value, in Hebrew, for Nero. That's what I recall, anyways. Could be wrong. Not sure too, if this is the Beast you're referring to? Maybe others can add to this. Treadway |
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