Results 41 - 60 of 233
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: There Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
41 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25217 | ||
I noticed that I had written the wrong verse number right after I "sent". :) I'm glad you corrected it. Now I'm curious. Do you know when that rabbinical "rule" was added? Any idea?? |
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42 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25216 | ||
Final Post in series. But since you and your teachers venture to affirm that in the prophecy of Isaiah it is not said, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive, 'but, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son; 'and [since] you explain the prophecy as if [it referred] to Hezekiah, who was your king, I shall endeavor to [discuss shortly this point in opposition to you, and to show that reference is made to Him who is acknowledged by us as Christ. Chapter XLVII.-Justin Communicates with Christians Who Observe the Law. And Trypho again inquired, "But if some one, knowing that this is so, after he recognises that this man is Christ, and has believed in and obeys Him, wishes, however, to observe these [institutions], will he be saved? " I said, "In my opinion, Trypho, such an one will be saved, if he does not strive in every way to persuade other men,-I mean those Gentiles who have been circumcised from error by Christ, to observe the same things as himself, telling them that they will not be saved unless they do so. This you did yourself at the commencement of the discourse, when you declared that I would not be saved unless I observe these institutions." Then he replied, "Why then have you said, 'In my opinion, such an one will be saved, 'unless there are some144 who affirm that such will not be saved? " "There are such people, Trypho," I answered; "and these do not venture to have any intercourse with or to extend hospitality to such persons; but I do not agree with them. But if some, through weak-mindedness, wish to observe such institutions as were given by Moses, from which they expect some virtue, but which we believe were appointed by reason of the hardness of the people's hearts, along with their hope in this Christ, and [wish to perform] the eternal and natural acts of righteousness and piety, yet choose to live with the Christians and the faithful, as I said before, not inducing them either to be circumcised like themselves, or to keep the Sabbath, or to observe any other such ceremonies, then I hold that we ought to join ourselves to such, and associate with them in all things as kinsmen and brethren. But if, Trypho," I continued, "some of your race, who say they believe in this Christ, compel those Gentiles who believe in this Christ to live in all respects according to the law given by Moses, or choose not to associate so intimately with them, I in like manner do not approve of them. But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded by them to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved. Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall likewise not be saved, and especially those who have anathematized and do anathematize this very Christ in the synagogues, and everything by which they might obtain salvation and escape the vengeance of fire.145 For the goodness and the loving-kindness of God, and His boundless riches, hold righteous and sinless the man who, as Ezekiel146 tells, repents of sins; and reckons sinful, unrighteous, and impious the man who fails away from piety and righteousness to unrighteousness and ungodliness. Wherefore also our Lord Jesus Christ said, 'In whatsoever things I shall take you, in these I shall judge you.'"147 THE END. Do we disregard this account of what I'd call "freedom in Christ"? God bless! |
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43 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25215 | ||
Continued from previous post. Chapter XXX.-Christians Possess the True Righteousness. "But impute it to your own wickedness, that God even can be accused by those who have no understanding, of not having always instructed all in the same righteous statutes. For such institutions seemed to be unreasonable and unworthy of God to many men, who had not received grace to know that your nation were called to conversion and repentance of spirit,78 while they were in a sinful condition and labouring under spiritual disease; and that the prophecy which was announced subsequent to the death of Moses is everlasting. And this is mentioned in the Psalm, my friends.79 And that we, who have been made wise by them, confess that the statutes of the Lord are sweeter than honey and the honey-comb, is manifest from the fact that, though threatened with death, we do not deny His name. Moreover, it is also manifest to all, that we who believe in Him pray to be kept by Him from strange, i.e., from wicked and deceitful, spirits; as the word of prophecy, personating one of those who believe in Him, figuratively declares. For we do continually beseech God by Jesus Christ to preserve us from the demons which are hostile to the worship of God, and whom we of old time served, in order that, after our conversion by Him to God, we may be blameless. For we call Him Helper and Redeemer, the power of whose name even the demons do fear; and at this day, when they are exorcised in the name of Jesus Christ, crucified under Pontius Pilate, governor of Judaea, they are overcome. And thus it is manifest to all, that His Father has given Him so great power, by virtue of which demons are subdued to His name, and to the dispensation of His suffering. Chapter XLIII.-He Concludes that the Law Had an End in Christ, Who Was Born of the Virgin. "As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people's heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father's will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show. And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God's mercy; and all men may equally obtain it. But since the mystery of His birth now demands our attention I shall speak of it. Isaiah then asserted in regard to the generation of Christ, that it could not be declared by man, in words already quoted:121 'Who shall declare His generation? for His life is taken from the earth: for the transgressions of my people was He led122 to death.'123 The Spirit of prophecy thus affirmed that the generation of Him who was to die, that we sinful men might be healed by His stripes, was such as could not be declared. Furthermore, that the men who believe in Him may possess the knowledge of the manner in which He came into the world,124 the Spirit of prophecy by the same Isaiah foretold how it would happen thus: 'And the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, Ask for thyself a sign from the Lord thy God, in the depth, or in the height. And Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord. And Isaiah said, Hear then, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to contend with men, and how do you contend with the Lord? Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive, and shall bear a son, and his name shall be called Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, before he knows or prefers the evil, and chooses out the good;125 for before the child knows good or ill, he rejects evil126 by choosing out the good. For before the child knows how to call father or mother, he shall receive the power of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria in presence of the king of Assyria. And the land shall be forsaken,127 which thou shalt with difficulty endure in consequence of the presence of its two kings.128 But God shall bring on thee, and on thy people, and on the house of thy father, days which have not yet come upon thee since the day in which Ephraim took away from Judah the king of Assyria.'129 Now it is evident to all, that in the race of Abraham according to the flesh no one has been born of a virgin, or is said to have been born [of a virgin], save this our Christ. (This is continued in next post) |
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44 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25214 | ||
Continued from previous post. Chapter XXVII.-Why God Taught the Same Things by the Prophets as by Moses. And Trypho said, "Why do you select and quote whatever you wish from the prophetic writings, but do not refer to those which expressly command the Sabbath to be observed? For Isaiah thus speaks: 'If thou shalt turn away thy foot from the Sabbaths, so as not to do thy pleasure on the holy day, and shalt call the Sabbaths the holy delights of thy God; if thou shalt not lift thy foot to work, and shalt not speak a word from thine own mouth; then thou shalt trust in the Lord, and He shall cause thee to go up to the good things of the land; and He shall feed thee with the inheritance of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.'"69 And I replied, "I have passed them by, my friends, not because such prophecies were contrary to me, but because you have understood, and do understand, that although God commands you by all the prophets to do the same things which He also commanded by Moses, it was on account of the hardness of your hearts, and your ingratitude towards Him, that He continually proclaims them, in order that, even in this way, if you repented, you might please Him, and neither sacrifice your children to demons, nor be partakers with thieves, nor lovers of gifts, nor hunters after revenge, nor fail in doing judgment for orphans, nor be inattentive to the justice due to the widow nor have your hands full of blood. 'For the daughters of Zion have walked with a high neck, both sporting by winking with their eyes, and sweeping along their dresses.70 For they are all gone aside, 'He exclaims, 'they are all become useless. There is none that understands, there is not so much as one. With their tongues they have practised deceit, their throat is an open sepulchre, the poison of asps is under their lips, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the way of peace they have not known.'71 So that, as in the beginning, these things were enjoined you because of your wickedness, in like manner because of your stedfastness in it, or rather your increased proneness to it, by means of the same precepts He calls you to a remembrance or knowledge of it. But you are a people hard-hearted and without understanding, both blind and lame, children in whom is no faith, as He Himself says, honouring Him only with your lips, far from Him in your hearts, teaching doctrines that are your own and not His. For, tell me, did God wish the priests to sin when they offer the sacrifices on the Sabbaths? or those to sin, who are circumcised and do circumcise on the Sabbaths; since He commands that on the eighth day-even though it happen to be a Sabbath-those who are born shall be always circumcised? or could not the infants be operated upon one day previous or one day subsequent to the Sabbath, if He knew that it is a sinful act upon the Sabbaths? Or why did He not teach those-who are called righteous and pleasing to Him, who lived before Moses and Abraham, who were not circumcised in their foreskin, and observed no Sabbaths-to keep these institutions? " Chapter XXIX.-Christ is Useless to Those Who Observe the Law. "Let us glorify God, all nations gathered together; for He has also visited us. Let us glorify Him by the King of glory, by the Lord of hosts. For He has been gracious towards the Gentiles also; and our sacrifices He esteems more grateful than yours. What need, then, have I of circumcision, who have been witnessed to by God? What need have I of that other baptism, who have been baptized with the Holy Ghost? I think that while I mention this, I would persuade even those who are possessed of scanty intelligence. For these words have neither been prepared by me, nor embellished by the art of man; but David sung them, Isaiah preached them, Zechariah proclaimed them, and Moses wrote them. Are you acquainted with them, Trypho? They are contained in your Scriptures, or rather not yours, but ours.77 For we believe them; but you, though you read them, do not catch the spirit that is in them. Be not offended at, or reproach us with, the bodily uncircumcision with which God has created us; and think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others; and the priests, as on other days, so on this, are ordered to offer sacrifices; and there are so many righteous men who have performed none of these legal ceremonies, and yet are witnessed to by God Himself. Continued. |
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45 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25213 | ||
Continued from previous post. These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I would be like thyself in wickedness. I will reprove thee, and set thy sins in order before thine eyes. Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest He tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. The sacrifice of praise shall glorify Me; and there is the way in which I shall show him My salvation.'56 Accordingly He neither takes sacrifices from you nor commanded them at first to be offered because they are needful to Him, but because of your sins. For indeed the temple, which is called the temple in Jerusalem, He admitted to be His house or court, not as though He needed it, but in order that you, in this view of it, giving yourselves to Him, might not worship idols. And that this is so, Isaiah says: 'What house have ye built Me? saith the Lord. Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool.'57 Chapter XXIII.-The Opinion of the Jews Regarding the Law Does an Injury to God. "But if we do not admit this, we shall be liable to fall into foolish opinions, as if it were not the same God who existed in the times of Enoch and all the rest, who neither were circumcised after the flesh, nor observed Sabbaths, nor any other rites, seeing that Moses enjoined such observances; or that God has not wished each race of mankind continually to perform the same righteous actions: to admit which, seems to be ridiculous and absurd. Therefore we must confess that He, who is ever the same, has commanded these and such like institutions on account of sinful men, and we must declare Him to be benevolent, foreknowing, needing nothing, righteous and good. But if this be not so, tell me, sir, what you think of those matters which we are investigating." And when no one responded: "Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man.58 Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness. So that it was justly recorded concerning the people, that the soul which shall not be circumcised on the eighth day shall be cut off from his family. And, furthermore, the inability of the female sex to receive fleshly circumcision, proves that this circumcision has been given for a sign, and not for a work of righteousness. For God has given likewise to women the ability to observe all things which are righteous and virtuous; but we see that the bodily form of the male has been made different from the bodily form of the female; yet we know that neither of them is righteous or unrighteous merely for this cause, but [is considered righteous] by reason of piety and righteousness. Chapter XXIV.-The Christians' Circumcision Far More Excellent. "Now, sirs," I said, "it is possible for us to show how the eighth day possessed a certain mysterious import, which the seventh day did not possess, and which was promulgated by God through these rites. But lest I appear now to diverge to other subjects, understand what I say: the blood of that circumcision is obsolete, and we trust in the blood of salvation; there is now another covenant, and another law has gone forth from Zion. Jesus Christ circumcises all who will-as was declared above-with knives of stone;59 that they may be a righteous nation, a people keeping faith, holding to the truth, and maintaining peace. Come then with me, all who fear God, who wish to see the good of Jerusalem. Come, let us go to the light of the Lord; for He has liberated His people, the house of Jacob. Come, all nations; let us gather ourselves together at Jerusalem, no longer plagued by war for the sins of her people. 'For I was manifest to them that sought Me not; I was found of them that asked not for Me; '60 He exclaims by Isaiah: 'I said, Behold Me, unto nations which were not called by My name. I have spread out My hands all the day unto a disobedient and gainsaying people, which walked in a way that was not good, but after their own sins. It is a people that provoketh Me to my face.'61 Conintued. |
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46 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25212 | ||
Continued from prior post. Chapter XXII.-So Also Were Sacrifices and Oblations. "And that you may learn that it was for the sins of your own nation, and for their idolatries and not because there was any necessity for such sacrifices, that they were likewise enjoined, listen to the manner in which He speaks of these by Amos, one of the twelve, saying: 'Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is this day of the Lord for you? It is darkness and not light, as when a man flees from the face of a lion, and a bear meets him; and he goes into his house, and leans his hands against the wall, and the serpent bites him. Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness and not light, even very dark, and no brightness in it? I have hated, I have despised your feast-days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies: wherefore, though ye offer Me your burnt-offerings and sacrifices, I will not accept them; neither will I regard the peace-offerings of your presence. Take thou away from Me the multitude of thy songs and psalms; I will not hear thine instruments. But let judgment be rolled down as water, and righteousness as an impassable torrent. Have ye offered unto Me victims and sacrifices in the wilderness, O house of Israel? saith the Lord. And have ye taken up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Raphan, the figures which ye made for yourselves? And I will carry you away beyond Damascus, saith the Lord, whose name is the Almighty God. Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria: those who are named among the chiefs have plucked away the first-fruits of the nations: the house of Israel have entered for themselves. Pass all of you unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye unto Hamath the great, and go down thence to Gath of the strangers, the noblest of all these kingdoms, if their boundaries are greater than your boundaries. Ye who come to the evil day, who are approaching, and who hold to false Sabbaths; who lie on beds of ivory, and are at ease upon their couches; who eat the lambs out of the flock, and the sucking calves out of the midst of the herd; who applaud at the sound of the musical instruments; they reckon them as stable, and not as fleeting, who drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments, but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Wherefore now they shall be captives, among the first of the nobles who are carried away; and the house of evil-doers shall be removed, and the neighing of horses shall be taken away from Ephraim.'54 And again by Jeremiah: 'Collect your flesh, and sacrifices, and eat: for concerning neither sacrifices nor libations did I command your fathers in the day in which I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt.'55 And again by David, in the forty-ninth Psalm, He thus said: 'The God of gods, the Lord hath spoken, and called the earth, from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. Out of Zion is the perfection of His beauty. God, even our God, shall come openly, and shall not keep silence. Fire shall burn before Him, and it shall be very temptestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people. Assemble to Him His saints; those that have made a covenant with Him by sacrifices. And the heavens shall declare His righteousness, for God is judge. Hear, O My people, and I will speak to thee; O Israel, and I will testify to thee, I am God, even thy God. I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices; thy burnt-offerings are continually before me. I will take no bullocks out of thy house, nor he-goats out of thy folds: for all the beasts of the field are Mine, the herds and the oxen on the mountains. I know all the fowls of the heavens, and the beauty of the field is Mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell thee; for the world is Mine, and the fulness thereof. Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Offer unto God the sacrifice of praise, and pay thy vows unto the Most High, and call upon Me in the day of trouble, and I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify Me. But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare My statutes, and to take My covenant into thy mouth? But thou hast hated instruction, and cast My words behind thee. When thou sawest a thief, thou consentedst with him; and hast been partaker with the adulterer. Thy mouth has framed evil, and thy tongue has enfolded deceit. Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son. (Continued in next post) |
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47 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25211 | ||
Continued from prior post. Chapter XXI.-Sabbaths Were Instituted on Account of the People's Sins, and Not for a Work of Righteousness. "Moreover, that God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and impose on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness, and that of your fathers,-as He declares that for the sake of the nations, lest His name be profaned among them, therefore He permitted some of you to remain alive,-these words of His can prove to you: they are narrated by Ezekiel thus: 'I am the Lord your God; walk in My statutes, and keep My judgments, and take no part in the customs of Egypt; and hallow My Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God. Notwithstanding ye rebelled against Me, and your children walked not in My statutes, neither kept My judgments to do them: which if a man do, he shall live in them. But they polluted My Sabbaths. And I said that I would pour out My fury upon them in the wilderness, to accomplish My anger upon them; yet I did it not; that My name might not be altogether profaned in the sight of the heathen. I led them out before their eyes, and I lifted up Mine hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, and polluted My Sabbaths, and their eyes were after the devices of their fathers. Wherefore I gave them also statutes which were not good, and judgments whereby they shall not live. And I shall pollute them in their own gifts, that I may destroy all that openeth the womb, when I pass through them.'53 More to follow. |
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48 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25210 | ||
I'm not sure. He spent most of his adult life in Ephesus and Rome from what I've read. I'm going to post several quotes by Justin Martyr that pertain to the "keeping of the law" and the "keeping of the Sabbath". It will take more than just this post, so I will follow one with the other. One of the things I find very interesting is that his words were written during the second century... before the RCC or Constantine had any real authority in the matter. The Bishops of Rome up through and including this time period were only that... Bishops. They held no authority over any churches in other cities. Exerpts from Justin Martyr's "First Apology". Chapter LXVII.-Weekly Worship of the Christians. And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,146 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,147 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,148 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. The remainder is from Justin Martyr's "Dialogue". He was speaking with Trypho a Jew (Rabbi Tarphon often mentioned in the Talmud). Chapter XVIII.-Christians Would Observe the Law, If They Did Not Know Why It Was Instituted. "For since you have read, O Trypho, as you yourself admitted, the doctrines taught by our Saviour, I do not think that I have done foolishly in adding some short utterances of His to the prophetic statements. Wash therefore, and be now clean, and put away iniquity from your souls, as God bids you be washed in this laver, and be circumcised with the true circumcision. For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,-namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us,-I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts? More to follow. |
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49 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25144 | ||
You enjoy semantics, don't you? :) Where did you get your "en", used in that verse -- from which translation or manuscript? Are you a Hebrew scholar? I am not. I have studied it a very little, but I still use a concordance when checking out specific words. Which Bible translation or interpretation do you use? If you have mentioned it, I don't remember. How do you know that YOURS is the perfect model? I use the KJV generally. And the KJV translates the Hebrew "e" as "or" in that verse. You said: If he believed that then why did he say that these shadows "are" (present tense)? My best opinion would be because all of the "shadows" represented by the Feast Days etc. had/have not been fulfilled yet. Example. If we read Daniel's prophecies, and then say "These 'are' prophecies of things to come", does that mean the prophecies automatically refer to something 'today' simply because we use the word "are"? I think verse 16 needs to be read in context, rather than picked apart... which was my point in bringing up the last part of Paul's statement. If you believe (and I'm not sure, so please tell me) that we are to keep a Saturday Sabbath, then using that same verse do you keep the Sabbath, along with the Feast Days of the Lord and the monthly Sabbaths? And by whose lead do you keep them? I mean, does the Lord tell you how to celebrate them now, or do you follow the Old Testament teachings in regard to those celebrations, or has a "teacher" somewhere taught you how to celebrate them? Need to leave... hopefully will talk later. God bless. |
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50 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25141 | ||
Hi Lisa, I left the Catholic Church about 20 years ago. I think I may understand more than you think I do. You said: You can quote scripture to support it, I can as well. Please show me the scripture that supports your belief in purgatory. I'd be very interested in changing my mind if you can show scripture that says we can be cleansed from sin by anything other than the blood of Christ. Please show me scripture that says there are different degrees of sin, such as venial and mortal sins. What books were removed from the Bible that you think explain those concepts that are not NOW in the Bible? And you implied that you would answer the question if asked. So I asked, what Catholic label in your last post do you go by? Or what type of Catholic are you? I'm not sure how to even ask that question. If we are going to discuss "Christian" topics, then let's use scripture to "prove out" our points of view, okay? I'm sincerely interested in yours. Two more questions. Do you think Catholic doctrine is based on the Bible? And do you think the Bible is the inspired Word of God? God bless. |
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51 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25139 | ||
Congratulations to the new family member, Lisa!! I agree you can't judge a denomination by one or two people. And I have not been doing that. I think I have been basing my remarks mostly on the differences between Catholic "teachings" and Biblical teachings, but you haven't responded to those particular subjects. Anyway, to suppose that because a few views have changed the whole system is, I think, wrong too. And what I was attempting to show you was that everything has not been changed by Vatican II. God bless. |
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52 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25113 | ||
In Leviticus 23:4 it tells us a little more about the Sabbath. "Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation (gathering together). You shall do no work on it, it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings." Seems to me he didn't tell them to go to the "tent" or the synagogue did He? The holy convocation of rest was to be held in "their dwellings". The Hebrew word for "dwellings" is "mowshab" meaning either an assembly or a dwelling (place). God expected the family and servants to have a day of rest one day a week. Isn't that why the rabbis made "rules" about just what could and couldn't be done on the day of rest? Did they make a rule that said everyone had to go to synogogue if it meant walking more than a mile?? Seems like they could only walk a mile on the day of rest. Is that right? Reminds me the Letter to the Hebrews (Jewish believers) 10:24-25 "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, NOT FORSAKING THE ASSEMBLING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER, AS IS THE MANNER (custom) OF SOME, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." Even then, apparently everybody wasn't gathering together in a "service" of sorts! And the writer of Hebrews didn't say it was wrong to NOT assemble, but simply told those who were gathering together to keep gathering together. And it seems that the "gathering" that was spoken of had a purpose such as stirring up love and good works, and exhorting one another at/during the gathering. It doesn't sound a whole lot like most services today I don't think. |
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53 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25103 | ||
It may have even been earlier than 135 A.D. Justin Martyr (100-167 A.D.) told of his experience with Christian worship. He begins with "On Sunday a meeting is held..." He converted to Christianity as a youth, so if he switched from a Saturday worship day as a kid living in Neapolis (ancient Shechem) which was soon after the apostle John died... he never bothered to mention it. He seemed to have found Sunday to be an appropriate day to worship the Lord. |
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54 | what is the true worship day sun. or sat | Col 2:16 | There | 25099 | ||
It seems like every time I hear someone discussing this verse, invariably they leave off the rest of that statement of Paul's (Col.2:16 and 17). Verse 17 explains WHY he said people shouldn't judge others concerning how and when they worship the Lord. "... which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ." NKJ Paul knew that true believers no longer needed to look to the shadow... because they looked to the real thing. And according to my concordance the Greek word for "or" is "e", and here is what it says: A prim. particle of distinction between two connected terms; disjuntive, 'or'; comparative, 'than': -- and, but (either), (n) either, except it be, (n) or (else), rather, save, than, what, yea. Often used in connection with other participles. So I don't think we should be saying that word can ONLY be translated "and"... because "or" is just as accurate. It really depends on HOW you want to interpret that verse, which truly should really be left up to the Holy Spirit to give us the correct interpretation instead of being 'led' by the teachings of men. Don't you think? |
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55 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24795 | ||
Hi Lisa, You said: My best interpretation to your points would be Pre-Vatican II and Post-Vatican II. Well, those things happened almost 20 years ago... long after Vatican II. So Vatican II didn't change all the wrong teachings, huh? I have heard about a couple born-again priests though, which was great news actually. But they were struggling with Catholic doctrine on a personal level. And some priests do encourage the people in their parishes to read the Holy Bible now, which they did not do years ago. My neighbor told me that his priest told him a couple years ago not to bother reading the Bible because a layman couldn't actually understand it, and that's why the priests read it and preach it... to make it more understandable for the laity. Such a shame... my neighbor believed him. So everything is not changed by Vatican II I guess. God bless. |
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56 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24791 | ||
Just one thing I'd like to comment on Brian. You said: While the core beliefs of the Catholic church are never changing, The core belief of Catholicism has never changed one bit during the past 2000 years. When you add someone else to the equation of man plus God equals salvation... the "core belief" is very much changed. Do you think it does not matter that on the one hand the Catholic Church teaches salvation is through Christ, and then also teaches salvation can be gained through the mediation or intercession of Mary? That is not a change in the core belief to you Brian? It seems like a major change to me. Or do you think the RCC has... since the days of the apostalic writings (New Testament) taught that salvation could be gained either way? |
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57 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24788 | ||
Hi Brian, 956. "The intercession of the SAINTS. 'Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.'[LG 49; cf. 1 Tim 2:5 .] Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.[St. Dominic, dying, to his brothers.] I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.[St. Therese of Lisieux, The Final Conversations, tr. John Clarke (Washington: ICS, 1977), 102.]" [From the Catholic Catechism] This is a "teaching" of the Catholic Church. It's catechism is used for teaching both child and adult about Catholicism. Q: What are the Marian dogmas of the Catholic Church? A: There are four Marian dogmas: 1) Divine Motherhood - Council of Ephesus 431 2) Mary's Virginity a) Virginal Conception through the Spirit - Baptismal symbols since 3rd century. b) Perpetual Virginity (virginal birth and no other children) - Baptismal symbols since 4th century (first in eastern church) 3) Immaculate Conception (Mary's freedom from original sin) - Puis IX, 1854 4) Mary's Assumption (body and soul) into heaven - Pius XII, 1950 [From "Marian Library/International Marian Research Institute", Dayton, Ohio -- a Catholic organization.] The dates in the above information tells you when those "dogmas" were officially accepted by the RCC. Some are not biblical truth. They were inspired by the many "apparitions of Mary" though... and incorporated into the Church doctrine. Yet, as I said, many disagree with the New Testament... the actual written "apostolic teachings". A PRAYER by Pope John Paul II: Our Lady of the Millennium, Mother of the Redeemer with great joy we call you blessed. In order to carry out His plan of salvation, God the Father chose you before the creation of the world. You believed in His love and obeyed His word. The Son of God desired you for His Mother when he became man to save the human race. You received Him with ready obedience and undivided heart. The Holy Spirit loved you as His mystical spouse and He filled you with singular gifts. You allowed yourself to be led by His hidden and powerful action. On the eve of the third Christian Millennium. we entrust to you the Church which acknowledges you and invokes you as Mother. To you, Mother of the human family and of the nations, we confidently entrust the whole of humanity, with its hopes and fears. Do not let it lack the light of true wisdom. Guide its steps in the ways of peace. Enable all to meet Christ, the Way and the Truth and the Life. Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation. O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God and our Mother, Mary! -- written by Pope John Paul II Daily prayers by Pope John Paul II: Through you God's holy people, his Church on earth, appeals for light and strength in its pilgrimage of faith. You have gone before us on the same journey and are now glorified in heaven. Be for us who are still on that journey of faith a true Star of the Sea, leading us to the presence of your Son where he sits at the right hand of the Father, enthroned in glory. More by same author: Take from all our hearts the selfishness that sours relationships and keeps us centered only on ourselves. Give us hearts aflame with charity and filled with love. Make us, like the apostle John who was commended to your care, loving children of our heavenly Father, conscious always of your maternal presence in our lives. You said: To these people, the Church presents Christians who have gone before us and Mary, as role models. Not as figures to be worshipped, but role models. Because of a child's relation with their own mother, sometimes it is easier for the child to relate to the mother of Jesus - which in turn, gently brings the child in Jesus' world. So either the Pope is still in need of Mary to bring him into Jesus' world, or he actually thinks Mary can change hearts, guide people, enable people to meet Christ, lead people to Christ, and he wants to entrust the Church to her... the church who acknowledges her and invokes her; and he believes she can sustain her children and OBTAIN THE GRACE OF ETERNAL SALVATION for them?? The Pope's Mary seems to be able to do everything that God can do. The real difference is that God's Word says that God is the ONLY person who can do those things. For myself, I'll believe God's Word is true before that of any man. God bless. |
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58 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24772 | ||
It may make a cute joke, but it would be a real shame if someone believed it. Peter nor Mary are standing by a door in heaven ready to let people in. They don't have the authority to do anything to save anyone alive today, and in many aspects that really is the key point in salvation, isn't it? Salvation means freedom from the bondage of sin, but it also means eternal life with God. So, who saves is a key point I think? John 10:8-14 Jesus speaking, "...I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture..." Joking aside... there is no other that can help you get into heaven. You said: I think Brian is saying the Lord would not create innocent peoples only to cast them into hell. I'd like to refer you to Romans 9:14-24 "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.' So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy... Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" The Creator does not necessarily "think" like we would like to think He thinks sometimes. And who is it that you know of who does not know the Lord... that is "innocent" before Him? Scripture says we are all sinners... and our righteousness is in Christ. No Christ, no righteousness before God. You said: They are his creation. Are they to be condemned because no one has been able to reach them with God's word? Isn't that God's choice? And if He says salvation is only through His Son... should we try to tell Him He's doing it wrong if He doesn't save those who do not know His Son? Should we question God's method of salvation, or His judgement? God bless. |
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59 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24767 | ||
Most of the information I've found were either in "Christian" books or ordinary history books. Also certain historical articles/accounts on the net in the last few years. I wish I could give you titles or even links, but I honestly can't because I don't actually remember any one in particular. When I read them, I didn't know I'd ever be asked. :) First off, when I say RCC -- I mean Roman Catholic Church. And I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by the "7 branches". Do you mean 7 branches of the "Catholic Church"?? Or are you talking about the early churches that were founded by the apostles, including Paul... which truly has very little to do with any of the denominations today in my opinion. So if you are not Roman Catholic, what type of label for your Catholicism do you use? I'm asking. :):) And could you explain the difference between your Catholic doctrine and the Roman Catholic doctrine? And is your Catholic church under the umbrella of Rome -- the Pope more specifically? And I think there is a bit of harm in teaching any lie, no matter how small or inconsequential a person may see it. And purgatory is one of those things. That teaching has given many the idea that if they can't cut it here, they will have another chance to be saved after suffering in purgatory for an indeterminate amount of time. That is a false teaching according to the Bible. God bless. |
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60 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24765 | ||
Throughout the Middle Ages it was generally believed that the Apostles, on the day of Pentecost, while still under the direct inspiration of the Holy Ghost, composed our present Creed between them, each of the Apostles contributing one of the twelve articles. This legend dates back to the sixth century (see Pseudo-Augustine in Migne, P.L., XXXIX, 2189, and Pirminius, ibid., LXXXIX, 1034), and it is foreshadowed still earlier in a sermon attributed to St. Ambrose (Migne, P.L., XVII, 671; Kattenbusch, I, 81), which takes notice that the Creed was "pieced together by twelve separate workmen". [Excerpt from the Catholic Enclyclopedia] And the belief concerning the Apostles Creed is based on tradition rather than fact. If the apostles did write that creed on the day of Pentecost, isn't it surprising that it is not mentioned in Acts 2, nor anywhere else in scripture? |
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