Results 41 - 60 of 114
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Results from: Notes Author: Curtnsally Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
41 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33703 | ||
The problem with your view, in my humble opinion, is that it makes light of Scripture. I give you 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" If we take Scripture in its entirety, there is considerable discussion of "the elect" and God's sovereign right to choose. In fact, the word "elect" appears 9 times in the NT and the word "chosen" appears 116 times in Scripture. However the words "free will" do not appear once. God didn't just give us Scripture to make us feel good. God gave us Scripture to teach us. Unfortunately, millions more people have been chained by their ignorance of Scripture than by their study of it. By the way, since you brought it up, the Bible belt is in the south. And apostacy emanates from all places, Yale Divinity included. As I recall, it was northerners who brought slaves from Africa... but that doesn't count I guess. The good news is that God is merciful. But we can only understand that mercy, and the value of faith, love, hope and grace if we understand our hopelessness without them. Thus, the whole message of the Bible is first the bad news (the ten commandments which we cannot keep), and then the good news (that Christ died to pay the price for our sin). My point is that we can't just ignore some verses because we don't like them. BTW, "hell" is used 13 times in the NT, so you're ok there. Blessings Curt |
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42 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33699 | ||
Thanks for the thoughts Hank. And good ones, at that. Curt |
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43 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33698 | ||
Brother Tim This is a very enticing argument. One difficulty I have with it, though, is that the word elect implies a "choosing from". If there are chosen ones, are there not also "not chosen" ones, otherwise, what was the choice? If God has chosen all, then why did He say He was choosing? It is warm and fuzzy to say everyone is welcome, but I'm struggling with whether this isn't just my preference, not God's reality. Still thinking Curt |
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44 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33695 | ||
Thanks Robert First, I agree, our minds are puny when we try to understand the largeness of God. Second, by no means do I want God to do what is "fair" for in this we are all condemned! My question is not so much " why this, or why that"... rather, it goes to "what is the nature of our relationship with God?" I ask this question because I believe that God is relational, and that He does want us to understand our relationship with Him (which goes something like this: God BIG, me little). I believe that the purpose of Scripture is exactly that, ie God communicating the nature of His relationship to us. Regarding the John 3 verses, I think it remains (in my mind) a question of this: can we believe unless God puts it on our heart to believe? Is it grace plus, or grace alone? Isn't our ability to believe an issue of faith, and isn't faith a gift from God? I think of Paul. He did not seek God, in fact God said to him "Why are you persecuting Me?". He was not being faithful. Yet God chose Paul and saved him from his sin. It was not God plus Paul, it was God in spite of Paul. By the way, this has been true in my life as well. Likewise, the fact that God chose Israel, by necessity, means He did not choose another people group. In this, I can only conclude that God is sovereign (I mean really really really sovereign) and can choose whom He pleases. To bring it down to a personal level, I'll ask you to consider a rhetorical question... In your own life, do you believe that your salvation was secured by God plus your desire for Him, or by God, in spite of you? In other words, if God hadn't reached out and grabbed you, would you have been saved? Did He put the desire in your heart, or was it inherently in you? Still pondering too Curt |
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45 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33689 | ||
Thanks for the encouragement! I count it a privilege in Christ to be in the PCUSA, as any missionary would see their mission. And its not so hard, particularly when we consider the missionaries we have in places like the Middle East! I count my blessings! Certainly we all cling to the verse "If God be for us, who could be against us". The gates of hell shall not prevail (even in the PCUSA)! Blessings Curt |
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46 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33687 | ||
I agree. I struggle with the free will vs election doctrines because I see them as a sovereignty issue. In my opinion, "free will" is very suitable to our culture (Americans want choice in everything), but I question myself in whether this is the nature of God or just my own preference... I wonder if it doesn't deny the sovereignty of God... ie that we can't even seek Him until He puts it on our heart to do so. Blessings Curt |
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47 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33685 | ||
So, if I understand you correctly, you would say that all are elect? | ||||||
48 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33661 | ||
Another thought (I'm on a roll now!) Why did God choose Paul? Was He seeking God, or did God choose Paul to execute His sovereign will? To answer my own question, God clearly chose Paul to take the gospel message to the Gentiles. Paul (as Saul) was persecuting God as we learn in Scripture... clearly he was not seeking God. Yet God chose him for His purpose. This "election" was both national (for the Gentiles) and personal (for Paul's salvation). |
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49 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33656 | ||
Hi Pastor Tim Tim I don't disagree with you on the one hand, but I lean toward saying that these Scriptures refer both to the position you have stated and to the issue of salvation. If we back up a bit in Romans 11, Paul talks about the covenant with Israel. Speaking to Gentiles, he explains the nature of God and His covenants: Romans 11 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. (I take the first part to mean the same as Eph 2:9. In the second part he is saying that God hardened Israel's heart to open the way for the Gentiles... to serve His sovereign purpose) 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. (But God will remain true to His covenant, even though Israel's heart is hard, ie they have rejected the New Covenant in Jesus) 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, (Again, Israel does not believe the gospel, BUT they are elect... chosen of God... and they will be saved... not because of what they do, but because of who they are... ie God's elect) 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (God's promise is true... He will not go back on His word... the covenant applies in spite of their hardness) Clearly this is a discussion of Israel as a nation, and God's covenant with the Jews. Yet, it reveals the character of God in that: 1) He chooses whom He will, and 2) once chosen, He is faithful in salvation. Words like "I will take away their sins" and "all of Israel will be saved" leave no doubt in my mind that we are talking salvation, both as a people group and individually. I don't think you can separate the two, as what would that mean? Certainly, the people of Israel were "elect"... chosen of God in the covenant with Abraham. Why do we find it difficult to follow that God could choose others through the new covenant? Supporting this we have other verses such as: John 5:21 (Jesus speaking) "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes." The sovereignty of the Father extends to the Son, and He chooses... not our choice. John 6:37 (Jesus speaking) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." Not "all who choose Me" but "all who are given to Me". Is there anyone who seeks God on his own? Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. Thus, even our ability to seek God must be a gift from God. Are we not, then, chosen? We often quote Eph 2:8-9 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. which says that grace (God's means of salvation) is a gift, not dependent on our works. But read on to Eph 2:10 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. God is sovereign over kings and kingdoms to work His will. Is He not also sovereign over us as individuals to work His will? You closed by saying, "He is making the point that all who come in faith receive the promise." I would agree, but add that those who come only come because He draws them. It is always God first... a theme that I believe is consistent throughout Scripture, including the Old and New Covenants. Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. (The "better hope" is Christ) John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." I'll stop there and let you noodle on this much. Blessings Curt |
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50 | Politics source? | Mark 13:28 | Curtnsally | 33642 | ||
So, again, no evidence or answer... just a broad statement and a personal attack. By the way, one source you might want to check into is a dictionary. | ||||||
51 | Is satan a spirit? | Ezek 28:14 | Curtnsally | 33641 | ||
The Bible tells us what, where? Please give references so we can follow your train of thought. Where does the Bible say that Satan is a figment of our imagination? Matthew 8 30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs." 32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. Who was Jesus talking to? A figment of His imagination? Blessings Curt |
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52 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33636 | ||
Who said anything about narrow? We have no evidence to show that God's mercy is narrow. Yes, everyone is doomed to Hell, except for the saving grace of God. The good news is this: There IS a saving grace of God! You speak in generalities, but you have yet to offer your views on these verses Romans 9. What do they mean? I struggle with this, as you do. The reason I opened this discussion was to think it through together... not to confirm what I want to believe, but to try to see what God is saying to us. These Scriptures are in the Bible and are worthy of our study. To respond to your closing opinion, perhaps God invites all? or at least most? do we know? Blessings, Curt |
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53 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33632 | ||
In light of Romans 3:10-11, who is it that desires God, apart from God giving that desire? Romans 3 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. Who gives us the ability to desire Him, according to His purposes? Romans 9 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Is it God plus my actions, or is God's grace sufficient and complete? Ephesians 2 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. I struggle with this as well, my friend. But this is Scripture, thus we must regard it carefully as we can. If I had to answer your question, I would likely say that Christ rejects no one who the Father has called. John 5:21 (Jesus speaking) "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes." John 6:37 (Jesus speaking) "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." Blessings Curt |
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54 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33604 | ||
Hopefully not when it was Towson Normal School... just Towson State College. Curt |
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55 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33602 | ||
I can answer your last question! Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says: John Calvin .... His mother, Jeanne Le Franc, born in the Diocese of Cambrai, is mentioned as "beautiful and devout"; she took her little son to various shrines and brought him up a good Catholic.... There you have it! The closest a Catholic can get to Calvin is to BE Calvin. Sleepy time now... Back to the fray tomorrow. Blessings Curt BTW our church is right next door to TSU on York Road (www.centralpc.org). We live in Lutherville (odd for a Calvinist, I suppose. Should live in Calvinville, or something. Shew, it is getting late. |
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56 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33588 | ||
Hi Joe I'm glad you jumped in! We may need a few five point Calvinists around when this discussion gets going. By the way, are you "ReformER Joe" or "ReformED Joe"? I would think in the PCA it would be Reformed Joe, unless of course you are reading Ogden's book The New Reformation (an excellent read, by the way). However, if you are a reformER, I sure could use your help over here in the PCUSA! lol On your point, would the "all men" verses not also signify the opening of God's covenant with Israel to the whole of mankind? In other words, not just different classes of people, but ethnically different people groups... actually all people groups. Paul certainly makes this case in a variety of places to the Gentiles. Blessings Curt |
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57 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33585 | ||
Greetings Emmaus Do you live on the Road to Emmaus? (sorry, I couldn't resist... I have sinned!) I want to greet you and welcome you to this discussion. I fully agree with Ben, there is no need for this to be an "in-house" debate. I'm not even sure which house we are in at this point! We're really just getting started on a debate that has run deep and wide for several centuries. I'm sure my fellow post writers would agree that none of us can claim to be final authorities, or even authorities, as much as some may know on this topic. It gets very complex very quickly. We are merely humble seekers of the truth. So post away my friend! And I'd like to hear your response to Ben's question as well. Blessings Curt |
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58 | Plan of Salvation Scriptures? | John 3:16 | Curtnsally | 33535 | ||
Thanks! And thanks for the additions. In my view, all of Scripture is God's plan for salvation, though some Scriptures speak more directly to the point than others. I'm just glad they didn't ask for five, or I might have felt compelled to jump into Five-Point Calvinism! (much to the shagrin of all who frequent these pages) lol ! Blessings Curt |
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59 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33529 | ||
By the way, wouldn't it be the five points of Calvin (T-U-L-I-P)? The third of which is Limited atonement? Curt |
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60 | Thoughts on Romans 9 | Bible general Archive 1 | Curtnsally | 33528 | ||
Hi Ben Well, this isn't going to be much of a debate unless some others jump in. I'm pretty much where you are. Can you expound a bit on your issue with unlimited atonement? Curt |
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