Results 41 - 60 of 495
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Results from: Notes Author: Aixen7z4 Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
41 | Can we not ask God to forgive another? | John | Aixen7z4 | 150971 | ||
It seems to me that Jesus is saying (in Luke 17:4, which has been referenced already in this conversation) "If he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him". Jesus is not teaching falsely when he says, “After this manner pray ye … ‘Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors" or “If you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." We are to assume he is being consistent, and that what he said to Peter in Luke 17, he is saying to us all, that forgiveness presupposes repentance. I sincerely regret giving the impression that the conditions for forgiveness are my idea. It seems to be they are Jesus', and I got that impression from reading Ezekiel 33, Luke 13, Luke 17, Luke 24, Acts 17, 2 Peret 3, Revelation 2, etc. I do not assume that everyone is familiar with all of those passages, but I thought they might have read my previous posts within the thread and seen some of them before coming to that impression. |
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42 | Order of Worship | 1 Cor 14:26 | Aixen7z4 | 150970 | ||
I was well prepared to thank you for showing me other things involved in worship. But I was not expecting to hear you say that there are other things we do besides worship. Of course there are other thing we do. “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve“. Besides worshipping God, we must serve him. But I do not see that service is the same as worship. True, “There are other actions that are commanded in Ps. 95“. But are they all worship? Is singing worship? It can be. We can worship the Lord with a song. But it would be reckless to say that all singing is worship. We can sing to the Lord (Psalm 33). But we can also sing to ourselves (Colossians 3). We can sing to each other and I can sing to myself. We can sing songs of thanksgiving (Psalm 40) and songs of praise (Psalm 100). We can combine then, as we are encouraged to in both those psalms, but I submit to you that neither thanksgiving nor praise is worship. There are times when a conjunction may render two things equal, and that is the case with “worship and bow down” in Psalm 95:6. But that is not the case with “worship … and … serve” in Matthew 4:10. Likewise, the word “neither” in Psalm 17 is a separator for two distinct things. God does not dwell in temples made with hands … and, by the way, he is not worshipped with men’s hands either. He could do one without the other, but he does neither. You said, “There is a… word … 'to serve'“, and “This word is often translated as 'worship' as well“. I wish you would review that and reconsider it. With all of my searching, I have not found that to be the case. The two are different words, different concepts. I find that service can grow out of worship, but the two are quite distinct. But now I think we have gone somewhat off track, and deeper into this particular subject than the originator of this thread intended. In asking about order in a worship service, I think the person was asking about the ordering of items in a meeting, and not about the nature of worship. Let us say that worship is one of the things we do at a meeting of the church. It would be nice if we did that, and communion too, whenever the church met. But there are other things we do, and I think we are discussing the simpler question, whether there is scripture to guide us in organizing the activities (singing, praying, preaching, etc.). If you say that everything we do at a particular meeting is worship, then we must leave it at that. I think we agree that there is scriptural guidance on the way those items are to unfold. |
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43 | Order of Worship | 1 Cor 14:26 | Aixen7z4 | 150969 | ||
I was well prepared to thank you for showing me other things involved in worship. But I was not expecting to hear you say that there are other things we do besides worship. Of course there are other thing we do. “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve“. Besides worshipping God, we must serve him. But I do not see that service is the same as worship. True, “There are other actions that are commanded in Ps. 95“. But are they all worship? Is singing worship? It can be. We can worship the Lord with a song. But it would be reckless to say that all singing is worship. We can sing to the Lord (Psalm 33). But we can also sing to ourselves (Colossians 3). We can sing to each other and I can sing to myself. We can sing songs of thanksgiving (Psalm 40) and songs of praise (Psalm 100). We can combine then, as we are encouraged to in both those psalms, but I submit to you that neither thanksgiving nor praise is worship. There are times when a conjunction may render two things equal, and that is the case with “worship and bow down” in Psalm 95:6. But that is not the case with “worship … and … serve” in Matthew 4:10. Likewise, the word “neither” in Psalm 17 is a separator for two distinct things. God does not dwell in temples made with hands … and, by the way, he is not worshipped with men’s hands either. He could do one without the other, but he does neither. You said, “There is a… word … 'to serve'“, and “This word is often translated as 'worship' as well“. I wish you would review that and reconsider it. With all of my searching, I have not found that to be the case. The two are different words, different concepts. I find that service can grow out of worship, but the two are quite distinct. But now I think we have gone somewhat off track, and deeper into this particular subject than the originator of this thread intended. In asking about order in a worship service, I think the person was asking about the ordering of items in a meeting, and not about the nature of worship. Let us say that worship is one of the things we do at a meeting of the church. It would be nice if we did that, and communion too, whenever the church met. But there are other things we do, and I think we are discussing the simpler question, whether there is scripture to guide us in organizing the activities (singing, praying, preaching, etc.). If you say that everything we do at a particular meeting is worship, then we must leave it at that. I think we agree that there is scriptural guidance on the way those items are to unfold. |
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44 | Can we not ask God to forgive another? | John | Aixen7z4 | 150963 | ||
When I sin against my brother or sister, I am at the same time sinning against God. Thus David, having done some considerable wickedness to Bathsheba and Uriah said, “Against you, you only, have I sinned (Psalm 51). And Jesus said to Saul, as he was persecuting the church, “Why are you persecuting me?” Saul asked, "Who are you?" The Lord replied, "I'm Jesus, the one you're persecuting. Think of that. When I think that someone has offended me, it is useful to think that they have actually offended God. God is the one who says, “Love one another” and when we break that rule, we are offending God. God sometimes says that I am the apple of his eye. Did you hear that? I am the apple of his eye. So when you stab me, you are poking God’s eye (Zechariah 2:8). God sometimes says, “Touch not my anointed, and do my prophets no harm“ Psalm 105). It sounds like a warning to me. And we have to cross God to get to our brother. All in all, then, I am not so sure the two things are entirely separate. In fact, it seems there only limited circumstances where we can sin against God without having harmed a person. A person can sin against his own body (1 Corinthians 6) and there are sins directly against God (It seems good not to mention them). But most sins involve harm to other people. When we hurt people, and especially our brethren, we are at the same time, and in the process, and in many ways, offending God. It seems to me that we are not able to forgive someone who has not repented. God also cannot forgive someone who has not repented. By definition, forgiveness implies repentance. But also, when we have forgiven someone, we must realize that, although they must seek it themselves, they also need forgiveness from God. |
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45 | Can we not ask God to forgive another? | John | Aixen7z4 | 150950 | ||
Hi: I agree that forgiveness is an accomplished fact (Colossians 2:13, etc.). Yet, strangely, God speaks of forgiveness as something he will do, or not do, depending on whether we meet certain conditions (Matthew 6:15; 1 John 1:9, etc.). It seems there is some appropriation to be done, somehow. All sin has been forgiven, and yet forgiveness is a part of salvation. And we do not believe in universal salvation, do we? It may be a matter of sanctification as well. We have been forgiven for all our sins, but we need forgiveness for our daily sins. We have been bathed, but we need our feet washed (John 13). I agree too, that we are to pray the offender recognizes his offense and chooses to respond with repentance. I suppose that is what we are really praying for when we ask God to forgive them. We tell him the results we would like, but that is his way of bringing it about. I agree as well, that it is good and necessary that the offender be confronted with his offence. But overall, there is too little information, too few facts about this case. We do not know what either person has done. Nor do we know what the capability of each one is. That is why I suppose we would want to put this in God’s hand. It does seem that these people may need professional counseling, but even if they do, the wise counselor will know the need to put it, and them, in God’s hand. |
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46 | Order of Worship | 1 Cor 14:26 | Aixen7z4 | 150949 | ||
Hello Tim: On question 1: Is giving worship? I am sure it depends on one’s definition of worship. In common parlance, worship has come to mean “The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object”, “The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed”, “Ardent devotion; adoration“, etc. As I understand it, the essence of true worship to God is to bow down before him (Psalm 95, etc.). Yet some feel it is appropriate to bring a gift as we do so. The wise men certainly did (Matthew 2). Paul was teaching, as Isaiah had (chapter 66) that giving to God is not acceptable worship. The reason he gives immediately; God does not need anything. This, of course, we learn from Psalm 50. If we do bring a gift, then God is looking for a humble and contrite heart (Psalm 51) submission to his word (Isaiah 66) and the fruit of our lips (Hebrews 13:15). On question 2: Is 1 Corinthians 14:26 proscriptive, or descriptive (or prescriptive)? That is the key, isn’t it? Is he saying, “How is it that you do that?” or “Here‘s what you have been doing“ or “Here’s what you should do.” Most translations leave the matter ambiguous, while some, with brackets and italics, show a bias one way or the other. As always, I believe the meaning is in the context. There is no indication that they were coming prepared with those things. But according to Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4, Colossians 3, they should have. Contrariwise, they seemed to be coming with only one thing, namely, speaking in tongues. Paul seemed to be calling for variety, for diversity, for a contribution from many. They should come prepared. But they should control themselves. They should share only that which edifies. They should take turns. They should make sure that all was done in an orderly manner. There is much in 1 Corinthians that Paul was correcting, but there is no evidence that he was against variety in the meeting. But are you certain that “Scripture goes out of it's way to not proscribe (prescribe?) a certain manner and order of worship“? It seems to me that the Old Testament prescribed in minute detail the manner in which God was to be viewed (Exodus 20, etc.) and approached (Exodus 24, Exodus 25, Leviticus 17, etc.). God’s anger and punishment was severe against those who violated those procedures (Leviticus 10). As time went on and things deteriorated, God considered their ceremonies to be at best a waste of time and at worst an affront to him (Isaiah 1:13; Malachi 1:7, etc). Would God who is a God of order leave that order up to man‘s ingenuity? It seems to me that God has prescribed an order, and men either disregard it and develop their own liturgies, or they allow the meeting of the church to descend into apparent chaos and disorder. But there are some who find guidelines in passages such as 1 Corinthians 14, the grounds for them having been laid in chapters 10, 11, 12, and 13. It might be good to look for those guidelines and principles. Otherwise we will tend to justify what we presently do. |
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47 | Order of Worship | 1 Cor 14:26 | Aixen7z4 | 150930 | ||
My heart goes out to pastors who have to deal with this on a constant basis. I know many of them who would like to do things differently, to go the Bible way, but they are trapped in the system. In visiting churches, I have had many opportunities to conduct an entire meeting, and I have tried to do it the Bible way. But this is a formal church. The program is all scripted, and the minister is responsible for only a few items, including the sermon. This is not the idea in view in 1 Corinthians 14, but the church seems to know nothing of it, and I am afraid they may have none of it. If one tried to change the format, it may just result in a situation where good is evil spoken of (Romans 14:16). I must adapt (1 Corinthians 9:22). But thank you for your promise to pray. Please keep it, and pray for me. Please do it now, lest you forget. One faces these situations with a sense of excitement, but also with some fear, and sadness. The fact is that many churches have but a weak apprehension of what worship is. They say that giving is worship, but Acts 17:25 seems to put the lie to that. They say that listening to a sermon is worship, but that cannot be, since the Bible describes worship not as a passive activity but as an active response to an awareness of the presence of God. Worship involves bowing down, not sitting down (Genesis 24:26, Nehemiah 8:6). I know that listening can be active. It is also possible to have an interactive sermon; I’ve done it. But scripture calls for two or three prophets to speak while the others judge, etc. Where have you seen that? And this is accepting the idea of a worship service. Some would say that worship is not a kind of service at all, but is rather to be contrasted with service. I agree that the Plymouth Brethren come close to the ideal of worship in their Breaking of Bread meeting, and there may be others as well. But it is apparent some churches think there is no guidance in Scripture and they are free to do whatever they want. They may be surprised to know there are scriptures to govern the meetings of the church, but personal experience indicates believers enjoy such a meeting more, and benefit more from it, when it is done the Bible way. |
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48 | How do we understand these words? | John 6:63 | Aixen7z4 | 150766 | ||
It has been a long time, and we have learned a lot. I trust that the Lord has given you grace to stay humble. As we remain humble, he gives more grace (James 4) and more knowledge (2 Peter 3:18). But how can we know if we are sufficiently humble? Someone pointed out at a recent meeting that we can become proud of our humility. Isn’t that amazing? We decided that we could combat this by always reminding ourselves that we are not humble enough. The standard, after all, is our Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:35). We always have a ways to go to be like him in anything (Philippians 3). I mentioned somewhere else in the thread that our group had done an exercise in humility. I think we all felt more humble for it. Yet I wonder about that humility thing. Would true humility have kept me from reporting on that meeting? Someone got the idea it was a good meeting, with everyone in one accord. The truth is that everyone in the meeting was struggling. Many were admitting pride in their Christian heritage, and some were confessing they could not be in one accord with people from certain denominations. I returned to the church that had sent me to the meeting and, without knowing what I had just been through, they proceeded to tell me how proud they were of their heritage. Yet, in some ways, I am identified with them. We had been reading the first part of Philippians 2, and I have often wondered whether we understand that passage. I have heard it read so many times, and the emphasis has been on the fact that Jesus humbled himself. Yet we seem to miss the point that we are to be like him, of the same mind. Someone says we should focus on him and not on ourselves. The passage saying, though, that the goal is to be likeminded, and a humble spirit is the means to that end. Put that together with the fact we have to be willing to obey the word (John 7:17) before God will reveal the meaning to us (Psalm 25:12) and what do you have? The point made so long ago, that we must be humble (Psalm 25:9) and patient (Hosea 6), so that the Holy Spirit can show us (1 Corinthians 2) what he alone knows, the mind of God in the word of God. |
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49 | It is the (s)Spirit that gives life?Both | John 6:63 | Aixen7z4 | 150716 | ||
I would say, "Both". That is my answer to the question: "Are we given the Spirit Himself or the good gifts or both?" Actually, your verses took my mind to Romans 8: “He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?” (v. 32). He who did not leave us without a comforter but sent to us his Spirit, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? With him, and through him, he gives us comfort, and assurance of salvation, and every good and perfect gift, and all spiritual blessings. Doesn’t he? And these lead me to Philippians 2, and the list of blessings it begins with. Since there are all of these things, consolation in Christ, comfort of love, fellowship of the Spirit, bowels and mercies, fulfill my joy, that we be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. We read and practiced this in a meeting today, and it was such a blessing. We practiced self talk: “I do not know everything”. “I acknowledge the Holy Spirit, and his teaching ministry in the lives of my brethren”. “I am willing to listen, and to consider what they say”. “I am not sure I am humble enough”. “I will listen”. And we practiced speaking the truth in love, and listening in love, looking for points of agreement, rejoicing in the truth, hoping all things (looking for more good from others). People admitted it was hard, almost against human nature, but we did it. In that, we were of one accord and one mind. And there was this sense that God was rejoicing over us. I just wanted to share that. May the very God of peace sanctify you wholly. And I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. |
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50 | It is the (s)Spirit that gives life?Both | John 6:63 | Aixen7z4 | 150709 | ||
The context of John 6 is the entire Gospel of John. The context of John 6:63 may be a part of the chapter, not necessarily the entire chapter. The chapter, of course, is an arbitrary division of the book, as are the verses. There are times when a chapter contains more than one topic, and there are times when one idea may run over several verses. I hope this is not confusing. When we speak of the context of a passage we are looking for what is around it, what led to it, what is semantically related, how it fits into the whole event. The context consists of the who, what, when, where, why, that are related to the passage in question; the part of a text or statement that surrounds the particular passage and determines its meaning. As for that other verse (v. 61) there is no way to know grammatically what words refer to deity. We determine that from the context. From the context it is clear what words refer to Jesus. As far as his awareness is concerned, we must remember that Jesus was (and is) God in a human body, and could do what other humans could do, and more. Because of his omniscience, he knew everything. However, it would not have taken that ability to overhear what the people were saying. From what I read, Jesus knew for himself. In other words, no one told him. Whether he was listening to their words or reading their thoughts, we do not know. He could have done both, adding what they were thinking to what they were saying. To ask whether a word such as “himself” refers to his human nature or his divine nature is futile, I think, and unnecessary. In any case, I know of no way to determine that. But we can face that fact that Jesus is God, and that he knows us through and through. According to John 2:25, he knows human beings and is not surprised by what they think. According to Matthew (12:25) and Luke (6:8), he knows our thoughts. As the writer to the Hebrews would say (4:15) all things are naked and open before him. With all that he still marvels at unbelief (Mark 6) and he still asks why (John 8:46) even though he knows the answer (John 8). But David would not be surprised that he knows our thoughts. He would be glad that he searches our hearts (Psalm 139). Even as he asks about it, and asks us to show it, (John 21) aren’t you glad he knows we love him? And these things we are talking about, about him, and no one needs to ask, “What things?” (Luke 24) he knows, and he is keeping a record (Malachi 3). So let us say the right thing about him. He did not judge them for their current, errant thoughts. Rather, he was offering then a guide, the Holy Spirit, who would help them to understand his words and lead them into truth. |
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51 | It is the (s)Spirit that gives life?Both | John 6:63 | Aixen7z4 | 150644 | ||
I agree. It is important that with breath in our bodies we have biological life. The fact of it is obvious, I think, and trite, compared to the other topic. While it is true, I am saying that it is not what Jesus was talking about. Compared to eternal life, which is what he was talking about, it is minor. The fact that the first Adam had breath in his nostrils, and physical life, is true, and somewhat important. The fact that the second Adam gives eternal life is of a higher order. The fact is that the Holy Spirit is active in the process (John 16; 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Corinthians 12, etc.). You will agree that a person can be physically alive and yet spiritually dead. For example, “She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth“ (1 Timothy 5) and “He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked (Ephesians 2). But how do we know which kind of life Jesus was talking about? Context. Context. Context. It is what he had been talking about in verses 40, 47, and 54. Eternal life. This is the will of him who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on him should have everlasting life (v. 40). Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on me has everlasting life (v. 47). Whoever partakes of my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life (v. 54). We do not suppose that he has lowered the level of discourse and is referring to physical life in verse 63. That is apparently why many translators have him saying: “It is the Spirit that gives life“. But we may also entertain the possibility of a double entendre here, in the fact that the Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:12) also gives life (Hebrews 4:12) to the word of God. You may understand better now why I asked the question in the first place? It is the Spirit who must bring these words to life and help us to understand what that scripture means. As The Message puts it, “Sheer muscle and willpower don't make anything happen“. These fingers acting on these keys will profit nothing. The Spirit of God must reveal the meaning hidden in the word of God. I was about to post this when I noticed what our brother Hank has written, concerning your health. I wanted to join him in wishing you well and in praying for you. In that moment, I wondered whether all of this discussion was important at all, compared to your health. But I recalled a meeting I had recently with one brother whose cancer was in remission and another in whom it was spreading. One of them is saved, and a pastor, while the other has no memory of a conversion experience, as he told me later. I felt I should rather thank the Lord for your salvation. It reminded me to pray for the man who is healthy but unsaved, and to trust he takes in the gospel that he took home that day. But I will pray for you and for that pastor also. Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be healthy, even as your soul prospers. |
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52 | people who have never heard the Gospel ? | Heb 7:25 | Aixen7z4 | 150296 | ||
Apologies to you, my friend. When I read, “WHERE IN THE BIBLE does it say that God is FAIR?”, I took that to mean, “Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God is fair”. When I read after that, “God is JUST”, I took it to mean that God is just, but not necessarily fair. I find it difficult to imagine how someone can be just without being fair, and I certainly thought that God was both. Therefore I responded to that which I understood not. Please accept my apologies. If you can do that, and if we can agree that God is both just and fair, then he is pleased, I think, and all is well. |
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53 | A fresh mental and spiritual attitude? | Eph 4:23 | Aixen7z4 | 150286 | ||
Please try to understand. In my last paragraph, above, I am saying that I have never seen the term holy spirit. It is not used even in a case where it might be used. Angels are spirits, and they are holy, and yet they are never called holy spirits. A single angel is not called a holy spirit. I have noted before that God gives a spirit of wisdom, a spirit of understanding, etc. But these are never called holy. The term is never used. In Acts 19 the believers were responding to a question, whether they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed. They replied that they had never heard that there was such a person as the Holy Spirit. There is no missing the point that Paul was talking about God the Holy Spirit. And there is no reason to think that they conceived of some holy influence before they found out the truth. Paul was referring to the Holy Spirit. He is the one Jesus had promised to send. He is the one Jesus had spoken of in John 7, when he invited the thirsty to come to him. John tells us he was referring to of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive, although the Holy Ghost had not yet been given. But Paul was himself filled with the Holy Ghost, in Acts chapter 9 and afterwards. The Holy Spirit is a person. But I cannot imagine what holy spirit would be. Even my spellchecker is asking me to change the words, as it knows of no such formulation. I heard the term “Jesus juice” recently, and I wondered whether they were talking about such a thing. I know that the Jehovah’s Witnesses think of an influence from the father and the Son that they call holy spirit, but I understand that you are not of that persuasion. And yet it seems to be the same idea that you are trying to get accepted on the forum. I really think you should give up on the idea. I have tried to show, through an exhaustive search of the scriptures, that the term is never used except in reference to God the Holy Spirit. Again, not even angels, who are spirits, and who are holy, are described by the use of that term. The disciples in Acts 19 had not heard of the Holy Spirit, but of course he existed as eternal God. They soon knew him because Paul laid hands on them and the Holy Spirit came to them, not only on them but into them, as I understand from the promise Jesus made. But I do not believe we will become acquainted with holy spirit because the scriptures know of no such thing. We will not change that by employing rules of capitalization, so I’d suggest, in love, that we forget it. |
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54 | people who have never heard the Gospel ? | Heb 7:25 | Aixen7z4 | 150279 | ||
Brother Kalos, God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). Is that the same as saying that God is fair? I think it is, unless there is another way to define “fair“. God is Sovereign, and he has a right to do as he pleases (Isaiah 46). He will do what pleases him, and no one can say “No” to him, or disannul his judgment (Job 40). But he is fair. There is no respect of persons with God. He will render to every man according to his deeds (Romans 2). God is just, and because of this, he is also fair. So, he who does wrong shall receive justice for the wrong which he did, and there is no respect of persons (Colossians 3). To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life (Romans 2). We call on the Father, who without respect of persons judges according to every man's work (1 Peter 1). Let me hasten to insert here, lest anyone think those last statements mean we can be saved by our good works. It is not of works (Ephesians 2). Not of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3). They said unto him, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6). But we are seeing here that God is fair. The Lord is good to all (Psalm 145). He makes the rain to sine on the just and on the unjust (Matthew 5). And some might say that is not fair. We may have some sense that the Lord should be good to the just but not to the unjust. But God is fair because he is good to all of us. He gives us more than we deserve, but he does that for all of us. And is it not lawful for him to do what he wants with his own? (Matthew 20). He is good, and he chooses to be good to all. Your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him (Ephesians 6). The LORD is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, who does not persons (Deuteronomy 10). There is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons (2 Chronicles 19). That does not mean he gives us all the same things. He gives to everyone as he wills (1 Corinthians 12). He can make of our lump of clay anything he wants. But let it not be said he is not good to all. He gives to all life and breath and all things (Acts 17). And he gives us thins so we can share, even spiritual things. He wants to save all (1 Timothy 2), and he will save all who come to him (John 6). He is not willing that any should perish (John 3). All day long he spreads out his hands all the day unto a rebellious people (Isaiah 65). Is he not good? But he does the same for all of us, and that is fair. |
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55 | people who have never heard the Gospel ? | Heb 7:25 | Aixen7z4 | 150277 | ||
Everyone has access the plan of salvation. That is my understanding of the message from scripture. I have stated above that the Gospel has been preached from Genesis 3 to this time. Moreover, it will continue to go forth until Jesus comes. It will be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come (Matthew 24). That is what Paul seems to be saying in Romans 10. “The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the same word of faith that he was proclaiming. Moses had said the same thing to the children of Israel. “It is not in Heaven, that you should say, ‘Who shall go up for us to Heaven, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and do it?’ Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who shall go over the sea for us to the region beyond the sea, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and do it?’ But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it‘” (Deuteronomy 30). It is not clear to me why you would say that Psalm 19:4 speaks of the apostles and ministers of the Gospel. I am also wondering why you say that their line having gone out to the whole world refers to the Gospel having gone out to the known world. It seems to me that Psalm 19 is a song about nature, the heavens declaring the glory of God, and the expanse proclaiming his handiwork. There is a message in the sun and the moon and the stars and in all of creation that gets across to all men everywhere. The same is said by Paul in Romans 1, that the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that people everywhere are without excuse. God also speaks to people through their consciences, so that they have a law written in their hearts. The Jews had the Law, but also the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves (Romans 2). They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts accusing or else excusing one another. The grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2). And yet, conscience and nature do not preach the Gospel, though they may prepare men to accept it. The one who has brought the Gospel to us is the Lord Jesus Christ, and I give you to understand that he has been doing that throughout time and to all peoples. It is the mystery which was not clearly seen in Old Testament times, but we can see it now. The Gentiles would be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ by the Gospel. Peter tells us that he preached to the people in Noah’s day, though Noah preached also, so that they would have their chance before they were taken away in the flood. Of course, the Jews heard the message. But God is no respecter of persons. A Rahab and a Ruth are just as welcome, and somehow they knew it. The Lord Jesus Christ goes with us now as we preach the Gospel where he has sent us, into all the world. And when he sends out his sheep, he goes before them. What is he doing? He is lightening every man who comes into the world (John 1). He is drawing all men to himself (John 12). He is still saying, “Ho, everyone that is thirsty”. He is still saying, “Come unto me all”. And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come”. And those who hear can say, “Come”. Anyone who is athirst can come. And whosoever will, he can take the water of life freely”. That is what I call universal access. I know that you will say no man will come unless God inclines his heart. And what I have said here indicates that he draws all men. Whether or not they can resist him, I do not think we are allowed to discuss that here. |
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56 | people who have never heard the Gospel ? | Heb 7:25 | Aixen7z4 | 150274 | ||
Since the topic came up, I have read a few pieces on it. I do not feel qualified to comment, except to say it seems the ones who hold that view still believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are trusting in him for salvation. They believe all people can be saved and I trust that it motivates them to preach the Gospel. My immediate impression is that the doctrine of universal salvation is in some ways comparable to one stating that a saved person can lose his salvation. As far as I know, they are both erroneous but harmless. I trust they do not encourage people to be careless or complacent. As far as I can see, from what I have read, that doctrine should not cause them to be slack in calling all men to faith and salvation. In fact, I’d hope it might encourage it. I am not sure it is useful to discuss this further. I would only hope that, as someone has said, that doctrine is not being espoused here. I have known only one or two people from the Unitarian church, and I have never heard them to speak of that teaching. Also, to repeat, I do not think it is what Danny was suggesting. |
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57 | people who have never heard the Gospel ? | Heb 7:25 | Aixen7z4 | 150262 | ||
Hello Doc. Perhaps you would like to read the posts I have already made in this thread. I think the answer to your question is already stated there, somewhere. And thank you for the Scripture you quoted. As happens, it is very familiar to me, and I use it often to explain what I do and to encourage other believers to become involved in evangelism. What I find is that some will not be persuaded. The question in this thread has been, what happens when we fail to do it. My answer, if you will consider it, is that Jesus does it himself. But say, why did you stop at verse 17? The next verse says” “But I say, ‘Have they not heard?’ Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world”. What do you make of that? |
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58 | people who have never heard the Gospel ? | Heb 7:25 | Aixen7z4 | 150261 | ||
And I thought I had heard everything. And I have heard and seen some strange things in my travels. I would have thought that an idea like that would be discussed as a philosophy, among those who have no respect for the scriptures. But I am glad to say I have never heard that doctrine taught in church. |
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59 | people who have never heard the Gospel ? | Heb 7:25 | Aixen7z4 | 150258 | ||
Hello Brad: Could you tell us what "universal salvation" is? I am guessing it is a teaching that everyone will be saved. I did not understand Danny to say that. What he seems to be saying is that there is universal access to the plan of salvation, and that everyone has a chance to be saved. I believe there is much support for that in Scripture, as shown in some of the posts above. The point that Danny made, that Jesus went and preached to the people in Noah’s day is clearly made by Peter, and has been referenced in this thread, I think. The statement: "It really wouldn’t be fair to condemn someone just because they never had the chance to believe" does not seem to be an attack on God at all. I do not hear Danny saying that God condemns people who have not had a chance to believe. On the contrary, he is saying that God is just and does not do that, that the situation does not arise, because God makes sure everyone has a chance to believe. I hope this is not being questioned again because we have dealt with it at length. But we can deal with any issues that have not been resolved. But again, on that doctrine: I have never heard anyone to preach a doctrine of universal salvation. If you have, please tell who holds that doctrine and exactly what it says. |
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60 | How many times is love in the bible. | Bible general Archive 2 | Aixen7z4 | 150204 | ||
I like your point, if I understand it. I like it a lot. I am amazed, and sometimes amused, at our love for words, as distinct from ideas, and at our focus on words, for words have no meaning except in context. “How many times is love in the Bible?”, the person asks, and I wonder. Is that person interested in a word count, or do they want to know to what extent the Bible deals with love; love for God, love for one another, how to recognize love or give love, for example. I wonder how many times the word “love” is preceded directly, or followed, by the word “not”. But the idea that we can love the uppermost seats with an agape love is stunning. Let us how it shocks us into looking at words, not myopically, or under a microscope, but in context. |
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