Results 21 - 40 of 54
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: Treadway Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
21 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51926 | ||
Hello Tim: You wrote: 1) The verse does not explain how this number is obtained or even what it means. Therefore, one must assume that the writer intended his readers to assign numerical values to the letters and add them up. This is a major assumption My reply: Gotta blame those "paraphasing" Bibles. The Living Bible and the book say: "...the numerical values of the letters in his name add to 666..." I'll note the sources. Howver, even in the KJV it says: "...let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast..." I assume these alternate Bibles took that to mean, "...those who are able..." Is it true? I don't know. Does it make sense? Does to me....Treadway :) |
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22 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51910 | ||
2nd Coming? Yes, no, or maybe? continuing from the previous post... Why are Paul, Peter, John and the author of Revelations so convinced that the time of the 2nd Coming is at hand? Obviously there had to be a seed, or seeds, planted for this belief (or feeling) to grow to the proportions that it seemed to have grown. And isolating the sowing is not too difficult a task. It begins with Jesus: The Kingdom of heaven (The Good News) is near. And it stays with Jesus. He tells his disciples, point-blank, that some of them will live to see his return. When he commissions them, sending them out into the countryside, he reiterates the message: “…announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near.” He tells the disciples to expect trouble, but tells them that if they endure to the end they shall be saved. He tells them that when persecuted, to flee to the next city, and the next. Then He tells them that before they reach all of the cities, before there are no other places to go, He will return. In context, he must be speaking of His return in the disciples' lifetime. In the Sermon on the Mount of Olives, Jesus echoes his previous statements concerning the End. Note the very personal interest of the disciples in wanting to know about the “signs”. Jesus is specific when he addresses the disciples with the pronoun, “you”. “You (the disciples) will be tortured…" “…many of you (the disciples) will fall back…” “…when you (the disciples) see the horrible thing standing in the temple…” “…when you (the disciples) see all these things, you (the disciples) can know that my return is near, even at the doors…” Many Christians who yearn for the return of Jesus will always point to the passage that says to be prepared because no one knows the day and hour, only God knows. This is the main tool that is used to somehow by-pass all the declarations of “soon”. And it may be a good tool. In my view, however, it is weak, extraordinarily weak when placed against the people in the NT who believe that Jesus will be returning within their own lifetime. In fact, a strong case exists, when taken in the context of the whole, the “…no one knows…” fits in quite nicely. Would the disciples want to know the exact day? You bet. Would they want the exact hour? Of course, they would. Is it logical that Jesus can give them a ballpark figure as to when they might expect his return? Sure. But that logic breaks down considerably when a day or hour is asked for. In summation: will Jesus return, as promised? Yes? Maybe? No? In the final analysis, it is up to the individual jury that resides in each of us. As for me, personally, I hope that no one accuses me of an “agenda”. I have none, other than wanting to sift through the bits and pieces, weigh them, measure them, sniff them, gather their DNA. As I previously posted, I was once a Baptist before I began to read the Bible. Although that may sound rather odd, I was one of those Christians who had never really read the Bible but just accepted what others told me about it. I have heard estimates that as much as 70 percent of Christians may fit into this category—but I don’t know. I know I did. Then someone challenged me to read it, really read it from stem to stern; to come to it with an opened mind. Pretend, he said, that you are an alien, and you are opening this Holy Book of these Christian Creatures for the first time…and see what happens. Currently, I am still reading….Treadway :) always good thoughts. |
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23 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51907 | ||
2nd Coming? Yes, no, or maybe? As some on this forum have noted, I have a healthy (or unhealthy, depending upon their views) concern that Jesus will not be coming back, as promised. I’ve tried to outline many verses, from those that provide “doubt”, to those, which seem to me, provide bona fide evidence. Instead of rehashing the same verses, this will be a final summation, if you will, with only indirect mention of where the support criteria may be found. (But if anyone should want to know “specifically” the verse (s), just ask) To some, this pursuit has been deemed the importance of a gnat’s existence in the universe, and that well may be true. But on the other hand, it well may not be true, and from a tiny acorn, a mighty oak does grow. From the very beginning of the NT to its very end, “Soon” is chronicled. “The Good News is Coming Soon!” A sense of urgency permeates throughout the NT. “Expectation” thrives. “Warnings” abound. Peter, Paul, and John are caught up in the clouds of “soon.” Repeatedly, they tell their followers (mainly Jewish Christians) that the end of the world is near. Paul tells the Corinthians, “…the world in its present form will soon be gone.” Christ (God), if it may be recalled, speaks through Paul. Peter echoes the theme when he declares, “…the end of the world is coming soon.” Peter is explicit, too, when he tells the Jewish Christians living in Asia Minor, that this end will occur during their lifetime. John is no less adamant, no less specific: “ …this makes us all the more certain that the end of the world is near.” No wonder, then, when Revelations is written, this urgent message is at the fore. When writing the letter to the seven churches, Revelation’s author pulls few punches as he stresses that, “…the future activities soon to occur in the life of Jesus Christ…” and, “…the time is near when these things will all come true.” He begins his letter with this attention getting “soon” and he ends the message with: “I am coming soon!” “…this will happen soon…” “…for the time of fulfillment is near…” “See, I am coming soon…” and “Yes, I am coming soon!” Consistent with the notion of “soon,” is his thinly veiled puzzle of the BEAST. Since the Greek language accorded a numerical value to names, the triple sixes is representative of the Roman Emperor, Nero. This ruler was, indeed, considered to be a Beast to the Jews, a ruler who persecuted them unmercifully. In the Hebrew version, the number is listed as six-one-six, and when translated, also represents Nero. That would put the concerns of Revelation squarely with his own present day. (to be continued...) Treadway |
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24 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51830 | ||
Hello Tim: (continuing...) You say: 2) Don't make a literal statement out of an assumption about the meaning of a word! My Reply: A word can have a literal meaning: my dictionary says soon means: before long; without undue time lapse; promptly. If I said to someone that I was going to die soon, would that mean to them in 10 years? 5? 20? 2 years? Or, would reasonable people, in general, have the same idea of soon? Would those reasonable people have a much narrower concept than those spans? And recall, it is not just a one time word. It permeates the NT, from The Good News is Coming Soon!, to REV: I am coming soon!” You say: . However, He never said that! (..that he was coming back in the 1st century…) My reply: This has been your strongest point, without question. But then, you must be willing to address what he did say. And then you must be willing to ask what he meant. You must be willing to ask if anything is implied. If Jesus said to his disciples in Matthew 16: 27-28, “For I, the Son of Mankind, shall come with my angels in the glory of my Father and judge each person according to his deeds. AND SOME OF YOU STANDING RIGHT HERE NOW WILL CERTAINLY LIVE TO SEE ME COMING IN MY KINGDOM.” Incidentally, this is even stronger than Mark 9. Even though Jesus does not say “in your lifetime”, what else could he mean? Again, a layman is asking: what does Jesus mean when he tells his disciples he is coming back and some of them will live to see it? Is it unreasonable that a layman can construe that the context is what it is? Is it not prudent to read this over and over, and still see the same thing? You say: It is dangerous to build an entire arguement on the truth or falsity of the Bible based upon nothing more than an assumption about how long a time is a reasonable time for 'soon'! ;-) My reply: Not at all. Again, this could be the “heart of the matter.” “Falsity” would be a worse case scenario. But, after going through each one, after sequentially listing them, and paying close attention to context, in order to establish the minds’ intents, some doubts may arise. I suppose my main premise would be that no stone should be unturned.. How else to know? Sometimes I waver, but mostly I feel I will be back in the FOLD. And can’t explain that feeling. But until then, I think I owe it to myself to make sure I’m right—then go ahead—even if I’m wrong. J ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You say: God Bless you my friend! Hopefully, we will be able to interact 'soon' on some other issues as well! My reply: Well, not so sure about that. Just what does soon mean? Might mean tomorrow for you, but 2 years from now for me…….Treadway |
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25 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51829 | ||
Hello Tim: Brevity response:? You say: Therefore, they often, as Jesus put it of the Pharisees, 'strain at gnats and swallow camels' This train of thought about the second coming strikes me as the same kind of strained argument on the part of some to disprove the Bible. My Reply: Just shows how different people see different things. I would be hard pressed, indeed, to equate the “pie” example with whether or not The 2nd Coming was aimed for the 1st Century AD. In fact, once I discovered all this, quite by accident, and then began to leisurely read the NT, the trail seemed to get hotter. What if this 2nd Coming conjecture were true? What would it mean? Would it mean the beginnng of the end for me, as far as religion? Or, would it mean starting over? Rethinking? Would there be a domino effect, or just simply answers? Would those answers wind up, finally, to THE ANSWER? And how to know THE ANSWER (or any answers) unless questions are asked? As you may have guessed, I am a layman, and my approach is simpler than what is usually denoted “scholarly”. But my layman’s questions carry just as much weight and concern (in my opinion) as those of the more erudite apologist or skeptic. I don’t mean to say that I dismiss those opinions (if I understand them) but feel my approach is as valid, since most of us probably fall into the layman category, And as for the interest in the 2nd Coming being in the “gnat” variety, I don’t think so. In fact, the more I muse, the more I see, the more convinced that if there is anything that could be the “heart of the matter”, this is it. No matter which side of the fence it falls, a WHOLE lot is riding on it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You say: 2) 'Soon'! We have touched on this issue several times, but from whose perspective should we view 'soon'? Differing contexts and differing perspectives produce differing definitions and/or expectations. A child has very little patience and 'soon' had better be in the next couple of seconds! :-) A college student realizes that graduating 'soon' maybe in the next couple of years. In geological terms, a small ravine may 'soon' be a giant canyon. My reply: The four letter words, “Soon”, “near,” are this complicated? Reasonable and prudent people cannot agree on what soon and near mean in context? For example look at 1 John 1: 18 “Dear children, this world’s last hour has come.” “…has…” come. “has”. Is that unclear? Either the world’s last hour has, or has not, come. One could even go past “soon” and suggest there is an implication of “imminent”. But even without that extreme, surely reasonable people could agree that if someone says “has”, he means what he says. Had I, personally, been the recipient of this letter, or had John told me this in person, I would have known he was speaking of the “now” in my lifetime. Would this be unreasonable? Then the context of the rest: “You have heard about the Antichrist who is coming—the one who against Christ—and already many such persons have appeared. THIS MAKES US ALL THE MORE CERTAIN THAT THE END OF THE WORLD IS NEAR.” What other context is there in this? What is there that reasonable people could not agree upon? Is this an example of the “child, student, ravine”? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You say: 1) Don't read too much in to a word which is very subjective! My reply: I cannot see how “soon’s” meaning is “very” subjective, in the commonly held layman sense. If that were so, then its use would almost be rendered useless. It wouldn’t make sense for the authors of the NT to use the term if they knew, as you suggest, that nobody really knows what “soon” is supposed to mean. In fact, when they used it, wouldn’t they have been sure, then, to explain what they meant? Or, do they expect the listener and readers to understand? I think, reasonably and prudently, the authors expected them to understand. Anything can be “intellectualized” to an extreme. I recall a friend who had been introduced to metaphysics, and for days walked around his Air Force base, wondering if he really existed or not. Kind of like: what does soon mean? If one wants to go into a myriad relativities, he will forever be asking: what does soon mean? To be continued..... |
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26 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51810 | ||
Dear Hank ane (Tim): Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful views. I will certainly file them away for later use and perusal. And since Tim "seconds" what you say, they must be accorded more time and study. -------------------------------------------- A couple of points: when you suggest that "skeptics" love to prove the Bible false, that may be true, but there are others with no agenda but that of trying to find out what is going on. As you also say, throughout the ages there have been several interpretations, just of this one statement of Jesus. This reality would demand, it seems to me, investigation. As far as "proving", that is a heavy burden, indeed, but one that does not fall upon the "skeptic". That burden rests squarely on the shoulders of the asserter (not sure that's a word). ----------------------------------------------- A "SOON" summation: the idea of soon, near, imminent, is not just sprinkled throughout the NT--the NT is flooded with those words and ideas. A person would be remiss not to inquire "why"? For example, if these folks were NOT expecting the Return, yes, within their lifetime, then why use these terms? Rather than "soon", why not use words like, "eventually", "may", "could", even the word "will" return, with no dangling "soon". Instead of saying the end of the world is "near" or "approaching", why didn't they say "inevitable"? When the idea of soon comes out of so many mouths, it cannot be ignored. Maybe like trying to sweep an elephant under a rug--everyone still can see that it's an elephant. --------------------------------------------- What you say about Mark 9:1 may very well be true. But I would be better swayed if it stood alone, apart, and had no further corroboration from the rest of the NT. There are many steps to this journey; Mark 9 is the first. Now on to the second.....to be continued.. But coffee, now :) Treadway |
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27 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51796 | ||
Hello Tim: Tim wrote; A literal statement would be: "I will come back in your lifetime". But, Scripture never says that does it? My concession: This is true, and must be conceded. Interesting that it is not stated, but then, that would be a book all unto itself. So many facets and loose ends to tie in order to establish reasons and purpose. An investigator would have to address motive, mainly, and considering the mystery of who wrote, when did they write, who chose what from how many other writings, etc., that would be a monumental undertaking to acquire knowledge about “in your lifetime.” Not that it wouldn’t be well worth it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, since that investigator won’t be me, back to “soon”. Let’s see what a “reasonable and prudent” person might think concerning IMPLICATION. Mark 9: 1 Jesus went on to say to his disciples, “Some of you who are standing here right now will live to see the Kingdom of God arrive in great power!” Now the reasonable and prudent questions: What does Jesus mean? Are there any implications? If paraphrased, what would be a good way to do it? Based upon Mark 9:1 Some answers to agree or disagree with: 1. Some disciples will still be living when Jesus returns. Agree Disagree 2. Jesus is talking about returning within the lifetime of some of the disciples. Agree Disagree 3. It is clear that Jesus does not mean He will return in the lifetime of his disciples. Agree Disagree 4. It is unclear what Jesus is talking about. Agree Disagree 5. A good way to paraphrase Mark 9:1 would be: Jesus really should not have said this to the disciples because only God knows the day and hour of Jesus’s return. Agree Disagree 6. Another way to paraphrase; Although Jesus does not actually say that he’ll be returning in the lifetime of the disciples, that’s what he means. Instead of saying, “will live”, Jesus could have said “in your lifetime” and the meaning would have been exactly the same. Agree Disagree. Note: agreements or disagreements should be based solely upon the TEXT as it is written. Treadway :) |
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28 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51759 | ||
Hello Joe: Boy, cleaning up responses with responses seems never ending. But as I told Hank, a hiatus is in the near future--SOON, if you will. :) I've probably addressed most of what you wrote in my other posts, but would like to comment on LaHaye. (BTW, thanks for the website...always on the lookout for good ones..) LaHaye was a major disappointment, principally because he seemed to live by assertion, even insertion. By the seat of one's pants may be the way to go, in order to make lots of money, but a more seriously intellectual approach, I believe, will pay the best, and the most long lived dividends. Some of my beliefs along this line seem to have been borne out, since the RAPTURE rage has cooled considerably (or so it seems). For a good while there, all I heard was: "Are you Raputure Ready?", but maybe I was watching too much TBN. :) Anyway, his ideas, methods, do not measure high on my barometer. Maybe some on this forum would like to take issue, so I could see what I might be missing? ----------------------------------------- Thanks again for your recommendations. All are welcome, and all do get their day in my court (where I am the judge, the proscector, AND the jury! ) :) Treadway |
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29 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51756 | ||
Hello Hank: Thanks for the "invite". But it sure takes up some of a person's time, doesn't it? :) As far as "actually find something good here", I think you're onto something. For sure, there is a wide range of folks with even wider ranges of beliefs and interpretations. To learn about all of those is an education all by itself. But may have to take a "forced" hiatus, anyway, just to clean up the kitchen. "Sooning" has turned out to be very hard work. :) Treadway |
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30 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51755 | ||
Hello Tim: Well, thanks Tim, for the kind vote of confidence. Maybe it has been discerned that, "...you can take the Christian out of the church, but not the church out of the Christian.." Or, something like that. :) An "ember" can either die, or explode into flame. -------------------------------------------- Now to business: you said that you would recommend "staying away from paraphasing Bibles.." and you may be right. But in support of them, here's a thought or two. What is "paraphrasing?" My dictionary suggests this: "..explaining or translating more clearly and amply..." In other words, the publishers, editors of these paraphrased tomes have sought to present another form, but, of course, to retain the real meaning. I don't think the intent would ever be to actually change meaning, although that may or may not occur "unwittingly". This latter may be what you warn about, but I don't know. -------------------------------------------- 2nd point: you suggest that 1 Peter 1:12 is not reflective of "soon" (the 2nd Coming), although others (the Bibles--The Book, The Living Bible, etc) have seen fit to say just the opposite. Okay. But then look a tad further down in verse 20: "...but only recently was he brought into public view, in these last days, as a blessing to you." (KJV says: "last times") Then look a little further down in 4: 7 "The end of the world is coming soon." (KJV: "..the end of all things is at hand." "At hand" equals "soon" to the paraphasing editors. In context, then, how can these utterances be interpreted in any other way? Unless nothing is "literal"? But that can't be true; some things are literal. By simply "listing", by simply comparing/contrasting, is it not clear that Peter said, "in these last times", or "last days"? Did he literally mean what he literally said? ------------------------------------------ And remember too, Peter's statements are not in isolation. All kinds of relevant corroboration. Everything is jumpstarted, right from the very beginning of the Gospels with: "The Kingdom of Heaven is near!" This is the controlling sentence, if you will, the governing idea. The Good News is near, soon, right around the corner. The time is NOW to repent. And that theme is followed up, writer by writer. There is a definite "urgency" sense expounded throughout the New Testament. Reinforced by Jesus, Peter, John, Paul and used as the ultimate tool in Revelations, "soon" dominates. How does Revelations begin? "This book unveils some of the future activities SOON to occur..." "For the time is NEAR when all come true." And how does Revelations end? Jesus says, "I am coming SOON!" ----------------------------------------------- I'm about "sooned" out. :) Treadway |
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31 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51714 | ||
Hello Ray: You asked: "...last post on subject or forum..." Actually both, but as you see I must have told a whopper! And I just noted that Joe! just posted a response and remarked how "easy it was to get sucked in here..." I guess I'm finding that out. :) You ask: "What translation..." of 1 Peter 4:7, and it was from the The Book. I have the KJV, The Living Bible, also... You suggest: "...forget about 'soon' and look into other things of God..." I say, of course, but would amend that to look into ALL things of God, and "soon" is one of them. Its importance cannot be overstated, cannot be overemphasized. For example, here is a "soon": 1 Peter 1:10-13 Peter talking to Jewish Christians: "This salvation was something the prophets did not fully understand. Though they wrote about it, they had many questions as to what it all could mean. They wondered about the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about, for he told them to write down the events which, since then, have happened to Christ: his suffering, and his great glory afterwards. And they wonder when and to whom all this would happen. 12 They were finally told that these things would not occur during their lifetime, but long years later, during yours. And now at last the Good News has been plainly announced to all of us. It was preached to us in the power of the same heaven-sent Holy spirit who spoke to them; nd it is all so strange and wonderful that even the angels in heaven would give a great deal to know more about it. 13 So now you can look forward soberly and intelligently to more of God's kindness to you when Jesus Christ returns." -------------------------------------- The above is a very important "soon". Point blank, not in the prophets lifetime but in the lifetime of the Jewish Christians Peter was addressing. About as direct as it can get. All the "soon's" do add up, and should not be ignored. In my judgement, they cannot be ignored but must be addressed. Is there a different take on the above? A different interpretation? I'd be glad to hear it....Treadway |
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32 | Who is the "Beast" in Revalation? | Revelation | Treadway | 51673 | ||
Hello Grace: Don't know if this idea or theory is "old news", but I once read that many believe that the "666" beast is meant to be none other than the most feared Roman of all--Nero. Since names in certain languages were also assigned a numerical value, the numerical value of Nero was 666. The number for the Beast in Hebrew was found not to be 666, but 616 (if I recall). 616 was also the numercial value, in Hebrew, for Nero. That's what I recall, anyways. Could be wrong. Not sure too, if this is the Beast you're referring to? Maybe others can add to this. Treadway |
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33 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51665 | ||
Hello Joe: Seems as if I'm caught in a "Catch-22", since I say my post is my last on this subject, then there is another response, and I can't help myself--have to respond. Maybe this can be the last? :) ------------------------ Take 2 Peter 3: 9 and put verse 15,16 with it: "And remember why he is waiting. He is giving us time to get his message of salvation out to others. Our wise and beloved brother Paul has talked abut these same things in many of his letters." The "time-table" that you refer to is clear throughout, it is "now", "soon", and "near". What is not known to Peter, Paul and the rest, is the precise "day" or "hour". And that's what the disciples want to know, and is understandable that they would try to pin it down. As far as citing the verse, "But don't forget this dear friends, that a day or a thousand years from now is like tomorrow to the Lord," has no real meaning to the current situation. Do you think it assuaged the problem for the disciples? Do you think it helped them with their waiting? Do you even think that they believed it? If that statement was truly meant to provide an answer, then it came up woefully short. And especially short when placed against what Peter says, what Paul says, what Jesus says, what John says, and what the author of Revelations says. Quotes from each: Jesus: Mark 9: 1 "Some of you who are standing here right now will live to see the Kingdom of God arrive in great power!" What can Jesus mean here, except what he says? John: 1John 2: 18 "Dear children, this world's last hour has come. You have heard about the Antichrist who is coming--the one who is against Christ--and already many such persons have appeared. This makes us all the more certain tht the end of the world is near." What John cannot be certain about is the "day" and the "hour". Other than that, what else could he possibly mean? Peter: 1 Peter 4: 7 "The end of the world is coming soon." What is there about the word "soon" that is not understood? Would not the listeners interpret that message to mean within their lifetime? Again, Peter cannot supply the "day" and "hour", but he's clear that it is "soon". Paul: 1 Cor 29: "The important thing to remember is that our remaining time is very short, and so are our opportunities for doing the Lord's work." Paul goes so far as suggesting that disciples refrain from marriage in order to get the message out better. Why? Because, as he says, the time is short (soon). Rev: 22: 6,7 Angel: "...to tell you this will happen soon." 12 Jesus: "I am coming soon." 20 Jesus: "Yes, I am coming soon." ----------------------------------------- Maybe the real question is the simplest of all: What part of the word "soon" is not understood by the readers of the Bible? ------------------------------------------- And Joe, I certainly agree that a person should keep reading, keep studying. But I think it's critical, not only to read the works of the Apologists, but also the works of their critics. A friend pointed out a website a week ago that supplies a wealth of exposure to both sides as they interact. "The Bible Errancy" newsletter by Dennis McKinsey (I think that's the name)is especially because of the "letters to the editor" section, which provides a forum for the critic AND the apologist. What better way to see and "try" to understand the varying perspectives and interpretations. All 192 are available online. Also, I've read many of the LaHaye books, lately "Are We Living in the End Times?" But all these readings are "after the fact", so to speak. First I read the Bible on my own, relied upon my own interpretive skills, or lack thereof. I have a hunch this is going to turn out to be a lifelong pursuit and I may even get it settled once and for all. Hope so. Treadway |
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34 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51653 | ||
Dear Emmaus: I have noted your recommended book.. Thanks....Treadway |
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35 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51648 | ||
Hello Ham: Might as well make this my last post, time to move on. I read what you suggested: 2 Peter 3. And here's my interpretation: Peter is clearly entreating his followers to have patience concerning the return of Jesus. Everything he says backs that up. The area that some may feel (including you, I assume) that would extend this entreaty to the present time is the following: 9 "....He is not willing that any perish, and he is giving more time for sinners to repent...." The notion is sinners whose numbers are finite, that is, reflective of the people in that same generation who are not saved yet. This logic is simple to follow. If it does not just mean the time of Peter's generation, then it wouldn't make sense. If it meant all the historical time of 2000 years, a vast cornucopia of new sinners would be loosed upon the world--millions and millions. Peter clearly means that Jesus is concerned about the current crop, he is waiting for them to hear and accept the GOOD NEWS, not the millions of unborn sinners. Think carefully about this. But then, really all that is required is to check out the surrounding context. I won't take the time to list all the references from Jesus, Paul, Revelations concerning "soon", "near". But they are listed on another post and the context seems axiomatic, to me. Crystal clear that the 2nd Coming was meant to be in the First Century AD. Some Peter quotations: 1 Peter 1: 12 "They (the prophets) were told that these things would not occur during their lifetime, but long years later, during yours." Peter is addressing this to the Jewish Christians. 1 Peter 4:7 "The end of the world is coming soon." Again, addressing the Jewish Christians. John the Apostle 1 John 1: 18 "...this world's last hour has come....You heard about the Antichrist who is coming--the one who is against Christ--and already many such persons have appeared. This makes us all the more certain that the end of the world is near." The Apostle Paul: 1 Thessff 4: 15 "I can tell you this directly form the Lord: that we who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise ahead of those who are in their graves..." There are many, many more examples in MarK, Luke and Matthew (see the other post). Does not Jesus tell the disciples that some of them would still be alive when he returned? ---------------------------------- In conclusion, if read in context, it is inescapable that the 2nd Coming is intended for Peter's generation. I understand that it is not what people want to hear, not want they want to believe, and I was certainly one of them. I had the adamancy of "Paul" concerning the Rapture and 2nd Coming. But that was before I began to read the NT, before I began to jot down these quotations and measure them against the actual context, not my own desired context. --------------------------- Anyway, thanks for your kind words. They're always welcome. And I post no more because this is not the place for this kind of questioning...Treadway |
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36 | Where do I go from here? | Not Specified | Treadway | 51611 | ||
Where do I go from here? Born a Baptist, raised a Baptist, I dutifully went to church every Sunday, zippered Bible in tow, no questions, no worries. At home, the family Bible rested always on the living room coffee table, seldom read, never studied. Then an acquaintance asked me if I had ever read the 19th writer, Robert Ingersoll, his works on religion. I had not. He suggested I do so. I did. And I cannot describe how shocked and angry I felt. But in the midst of all the anger I read these words: Most Christians have not read their own Bibles. He had me there. I had not ‘really’ read much of the Bible and just knew generally the standard fare of the Sunday school teaching. So, now I have read Ingersoll AND the Bible. Since then, I have visited studybibleforum to see the thinking of others, and while here, learned about preterist. This was after I listed several verses in a post that seemed pristinely clear that “soon” and “near” was the common understanding of ALL in the NT as they applied to the 2nd Coming. Except for two responses, neither of which directly addressed the context of the verses, there was silence. After looking up preterist, I discovered that their view of the 2nd Coming ideas were similar to what I had discovered in my own independent Bible reading. But then, as I learned more about their views, I came to understand that, for their particular reasons, they were not willing to take the logic of it all to its inevitable conclusions: a) the 2nd Coming was expected in the 1st Century AD b) the 2nd Coming did not happen c) the disciples were mistaken d) Jesus was mistaken e) if Jesus was mistaken, then He is not God f) there will be no 2nd Coming, no Rapture g) the Book of Revelations is, indeed, the ravings of a madman, just as Ingersoll and Thomas Jefferson declared h) and the accepted notion of God is in serious jeopardy. So, I must bid adieu. Thanks for your tolerance from a great group of people. Treadway |
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37 | Where do I go from here? | 2 Pet 3:4 | Treadway | 51616 | ||
Where do I go from here? Born a Baptist, raised a Baptist, I dutifully went to church every Sunday, zippered Bible in tow, no questions, no worries. At home, the family Bible rested always on the living room coffee table, seldom read, never studied. Then an acquaintance asked me if I had ever read the 19th writer, Robert Ingersoll, his works on religion. I had not. He suggested I do so. I did. And I cannot describe how shocked and angry I felt. But in the midst of all the anger I read these words: Most Christians have not read their own Bibles. He had me there. I had not ‘really’ read much of the Bible and just knew generally the standard fare of the Sunday school teaching. So, now I have read Ingersoll AND the Bible. Since then, I have visited studybibleforum to see the thinking of others, and while here, learned about preterist. This was after I listed several verses in a post that seemed pristinely clear that “soon” and “near” was the common understanding of ALL in the NT as they applied to the 2nd Coming. Except for two responses, neither of which directly addressed the context of the verses, there was silence. After looking up preterist, I discovered that their view of the 2nd Coming ideas were similar to what I had discovered in my own independent Bible reading. But then, as I learned more about their views, I came to understand that, for their particular reasons, they were not willing to take the logic of it all to its inevitable conclusions: a) the 2nd Coming was expected in the 1st Century AD b) the 2nd Coming did not happen c) the disciples were mistaken d) Jesus was mistaken e) if Jesus was mistaken, then He is not God f) there will be no 2nd Coming, no Rapture g) the Book of Revelations is, indeed, the ravings of a madman, just as Ingersoll and Thomas Jefferson declared h) and the accepted notion of God is in serious jeopardy. So, I must bid adieu. Thanks for your tolerance from a great group of people. Treadway |
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38 | Saved with Baptism? | Bible general Archive 1 | Treadway | 51540 | ||
Hello Berean: Can all that you've said about sin, babies, children be summed up with: "They simply go to Hell"? If that's wrong, then I will stand corrected. Treadway |
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39 | Where do very young kids go if pass on? | 2 Sam 12:23 | Treadway | 51497 | ||
For Dr. Jack Van Impe: You stated, "...His gift to mankind is freely bestowed upon all until they know right from wrong..." Thinking about this, a few questions come to mind: what would be the criteria for judging the age or condition of knowing right from wrong? It could be argued that a three-year-old basically can know right from wrong, for example. On the other hand, if this just applies to ages that all can agree that would not know right from wrong, then, as I understand this, all of this type of child, be he Chinese, Indian, destroyed in the Flood, burned in Sodom and Gomarrah, ALL of the children in Man' history, would reside in Heaven, no exceptions? Treadway |
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40 | Ques. for Grace andTruth | Romans | Treadway | 51495 | ||
After only a week or so, interacting with the StudyBibleForum members, I am struck with this stupeying observance: One Book, inspired, God-breathed, inerrant and about 1500 or so different denominations with differents "takes", different beliefs, different approaches. How can this be? This site was recommended to me as an aid to my understanding, but so far, it has added to my confusion. I was wondering if anyone has any knowledge of other Christian websites that may help? Treadway |
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