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Results from: Notes Author: Jim Dunne Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
21 | water into wine | John 2:1 | Jim Dunne | 11606 | ||
Hi Tim! I guess we're going to disagree on this one - you're probably a more conservative evangelical than I am. I really believe that it was wine that Jesus made at Cana. It may be that wine was not as strong back then as it is now, but I think it was definitely an alcoholic beverage. In my reading of the story, that's the whole point of the banquet master's comment to the bridegroom. It's also occured to me that assuming that the "wine" was in fact just grape juice raises an interesting question: Would there really be "grades" of grape juice? Good wine vs. not-so-good wine, certainly. But good or not-so-good grape juice? Unless it it would be fresh vs. old grape juice, but in that climate in the 1st century, "old" grape juice would either be vinegar or true, alcoholic wine very quickly. I guess that's where I have the biggest problem. No matter what people may have wanted to do, there is simply no way that, except for a very brief period after the harvest, anyone could drink anything other than alcoholic wine. It would either ferment, or it would spoil. For at least 10 months of the year (maybe only 8 if there were two growing seasons), people would either drink real wine, or they would drink water. It's worth mentioning here that neither I, nor the church I belong to, frown upon the moderate, responsible consumption of alcohol. I'm going to quote C.S. Lewis here - definitely a theologian for whom I have a tremendous amount of respect. Like me, Lewis and his denomination did not believe in a Christian prohibition against alcohol. I'm going to point out, though, that there is a criticism explicit in his comments that is not present in mine. Please don't ANYONE take this as an attack. Or at least, if you do, take it up with the honorable Dr. Lewis, not me. (g) The following was a response that Lewis wrote to a question from some American Christians about his stance on alcohol: "I have always in my books been concerned simply to put forward "mere" Christianity, and am no guide on these (most regrettable) "inter-denominational" questions. I do however strongly object to the tyrannic and unscriptural insolence of anything that calls itself a Church and makes teetotalism a condition of membership. Apart from the more serious objection (that Our Lord Himself turned water into wine and made wine the medium of the only rite He imposed on all His followers), it is so provincial (what I believe you people call "small town"). Don't they realize that Christianity arose in the Mediterranean world where, then as now, wine was as much a part of the normal diet as bread?" I have to say that I am much more willing to trust Lewis's scholorship on matters like this than I am my own. And since my church's beliefs coincide with my own, it's not an issue of conscience for me. Anyway, my two cents worth, together with a least a dollars' worth of Lewis. Yours in Christ, Jim D. |
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22 | water into wine | John 2:1 | Jim Dunne | 11965 | ||
Tim - This is really interesting - thanks for posting it. On your comment "Even in English, the word "wine" didn’t come to mean an alcoholic beverage until about the mid 20th century", that doesn't sound right to me. 19th century English literature is rife with references to wine, and it's pretty clear in context that the references are to an alcoholic beverage. Can you elaborate? I'll admit I'm no expert on either 1st century culture, or winemaking (g), but there are a couple of things I wanted to mention, and get your thoughts on here: 1. In Matthew 9:17, the reference to not putting new wine in old wineskins most likely has nothing to do with preventing fermentation. In fact, short of cooking (pasteurizing) or freezing grape juice, it's just about impossible to stop it from fermenting. If you purchase unpasteurized grape juice, and let it sit in your refrigerator, you will slow down the process somewhat, but you will ultimately end up with wine or vinegar. I visited the website for Welch's, arguably the "grape juice gurus", and found this interesting little factoid: "1869 - Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an "unfermented sacramental wine" for fellow parishioners at his church in Vineland, N.J., where he is communion steward. His achievement marks the beginning of the processed fruit juice industry." 2. The reason that ancient winemakers didn't like to put new wine into old wineskins is that the fermentation process generates gases, which increase the pressure inside the wineskin, causing it to stretch and become brittle. If you reused a wineskin, there was a good chance the pressure buildup would cause the skin to split, ruining both wine and container. (Once fermentation was completed, old skins could be used as containers for the now stable beverage.) I don't claim this as an original to me - I swiped it out of Expositors Bible Commentary. 3. It's a common misconception that grapes are harvested, pressed into juice, and then some kind of fermentation agent is added to cause the transformation from juice to wine. It doesn't usually happen that way. The fermentation process generally starts while the grapes are still on the vine, and it's completely natural and unpreventable. "Table" grapes are intentionally harvested before this can happen, although it will still happen to them even after harvesting, if they're left too long. I really want to understand your point of view better. I certainly don't encourage alcohol consumption for anyone today, but I don't discourage it except when it's taken to excess. But I can't figure out how anyone in biblical times could avoid it. If you press ANY fruit into juice, you will very quickly get alcohol. I really do want to understand this better - help me out! Yours in Christ, Jim D. |
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23 | Created for heaven or hell? | John 3:16 | Jim Dunne | 11405 | ||
Very well said. You've prompted me to go back through and read the previous discussions, as I don't have a clear understand of Calvinism, Arminianism, or the doctrine of Election. But certainly, rehashing the same debates over and over again would be tedious and counter-productive. At least that's my opinion. Yours in Christ, Jim D. |
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24 | muslims - 144,000? | Revelation | Jim Dunne | 10829 | ||
Isa - Don't be put off by the more "zealous" folks here. They're just as likely to growl at us as they are at you. :) While I don't think the Lockman Foundation would be particularly pleased if you started trying to convince all of us to switch to Islam :), I for one believe you're most welcome here as a seeker after knowledge. There are certainly many serious, significant issues that divide Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, and they're not any of them easily reconcilable. But as many scholars have pointed out, we are all "people of the Book". We should make every effort to deal with each other in charity and courtesy. My opinion is just that - my opinion. But I hope you'll stay and ask the questions you have. God's blessings upon you, Jim D. |
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