Results 21 - 26 of 26
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Results from: Notes Author: HOTH Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
21 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | HOTH | 221586 | ||
Hi Keliy, Are you then saying that “God created the heavens and the earth” (the universe and the planet earth) prior to the first day? Could “in the beginning” be a term encompassing eternity going back in time, but prior to the first day? My understanding is that God and The Word have always been and were "in the beginning." John 1:2 It would seem that time has always been, but God now gives a way to measure that time in a limited human way, but beyond the first day. We can now measure time in light years, but that is a measurement that takes time a great distance back. I hope this is not too confusing. Thanks, Hoth |
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22 | What about Jacob-Israel and Ephraim? | Gen 17:6 | HOTH | 176721 | ||
Hi eklektos, Welcome back. Well stated, I can't add to it! Hoth |
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23 | What do these 430 years mean? | Gen 15:13 | HOTH | 176192 | ||
Hi Bruce, Thank you for your comments. I have responded to each of your remarks below. I have enjoyed this opportunity for the additional study. “1) In the LXX and the Samaritan Penteuch in Ex 12:40-41 refers to the period of time in Egypt and Canaan” We agree on this. However, it is also important to note that Genesis 15:13 is also making reference to Canaan and Egypt. Where it says “strangers dwelling as temporary residents” it is referring to Canaan, not Egypt. See Exodus 6:4 . This phrase is found often and is identified with Canaan. The Hebrews were not strangers in Egypt, but invited residents of the Pharaoh himself and brought to Egypt on Pharaoh’s wagons. “2) the Massoretic Text and the LXX have the period referring only to the sons of Israel.” Galatians 3:16-17 identifies the 430 year time frame. It began with the covenant made with Abraham concerning the coming Messiah. This can be found at Genesis 22:18, the Passover of Isaac for the ram, exactly 430 years before the Passover in Egypt. Genesis 12:41. Shortly after the Passover in Egypt, the law was given in the Ten Commandments. Thus, 430 years from the covenant to the law being given. “3) It is not until Jacob returns that there are sons of Israel in Canaan. Jacob and his sons were in Canaan for 30 years before going to Egypt.” There are numerous reasons why Jacob and his sons were in Canaan for a much longer period than 30 years. The best evidence of more than 30 years is the listing of the descendants of Jacob, who arrived with him in Egypt. Genesis 46:8-27. For instance, Benjamin was born after his parents came into Canaan. Yet when Benjamin arrived in Egypt he had 10 sons. Judah, after Joseph was sold into slavery, married and raised three sons to adults. After which, he had his twin sons Perez and Zerah. When Perez arrived in Egypt he had two sons of his own. These events could not have been accomplished in only 30 years. “4) The period in Egypt was 400 years, it could not be shorter because 1 Chronicles 7:20-27 records each of Ephraim's descendants generations, if the period was 215 years each father would father his son at age 12.” The 215 years is calculated by those who believe that the 430 years began with the call of Abraham, when he was 75 years old. (This does not explain the meaning of the 400 years.) As stated before, I believe the 430 years was from the Passover of Isaac and the 400 years from the birth of Jacob. Jacob was 130 years old when he arrived in Egypt and therefore the stay in Egypt was 270 years, not 215 years. Ephraim was the 2nd son of Joseph born during the abundant years. This would make him about 3-7 years old when the other Hebrews arrived. Let’s say Ephraim was 5 years old and in the 15th and 16th years (of the 270 years) he became the father of Ezer and Elead. They grew up and in the 36th year they were slain. In the 37th year Beriah was born. When Beriah was 23 (in the 60nd year) he became the father of Rephah. When Rephah was 23 (in the 83th year) he became the father of Resheph. When Resheph was 23(in the 106th year) he became the father of Telah. When Telah was 23 ( in the 129th year) he became the father of Tahah. When Tahah was 23 ( in the 152 year) he became the father of Ladan. When Ladan was 23 (in the 175th year) he became the father of Ammihud. When Ammihud was 23 (in the 198th year) he became the father of Elishama. When Elishama was 23 (in the 221st year) he became the father of Nun. When Nun was 23 (in the 244th year) he became the father of Joshua. And when Joshua was 26 (in the 270th year of the Hebrews being in Egypt, he became a “young” aid to Moses.) Exodus 33:11. Of course the above are all estimates, but it clearly indicates that it was very possible to have this number of generations during the 270 years. Hope this is helpful in your studies. Yours in Christ, Jim Estes |
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24 | What about Jacob-Israel and Ephraim? | Gen 17:6 | HOTH | 176006 | ||
Hi eklektos, Your Question: “In speaking of the nations, other than Israel and Judah, as you first asked, who do you see these multitudes of nations to be?” Yes, that was my question. The reason I asked was the verses concerning these “multitude of nations” seem pretty much ignored. I wanted to see what others thought and their reasoning. I truly appreciate your efforts and for sticking with it. Your answers were representative of what I have heard from others, but not in written form with scripture cited. Since mine is not the traditional viewpoint, I am appreciative of the additional study and understanding this exchange has provided. First, let me clarify, in speaking of the “many nations,” I was referring to nations other than the Ancient Kingdom of Judah and the Ancient Kingdom of Israel as having fulfilled these prophesies at the time of their existence. I would also exclude the Modern State of Israel. They were never “many nations” nor were their populations too numerous to count. In Bible study, I have heard that the Northern Kingdom of Israel was either 1) consolidated with Judea at the time of the return from Babylon or 2) were absorbed by the Assyrians and/or other peoples and ceased to exist. I found these explanations not only to contradict each other, but both to be inconsistent with scripture. Ancient Judah was carried off into captivity in Babylon and returned 70 years later. Judea consisted of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin as well as individuals from the some of the other tribes. When Jesus came, his own did not receive him. (John 1:11) I believe “his own” refers to the tribe of Judah, the Jews, tribe of his descent. The Modern State of Israel is populated by the children of Judah. Modern Israel is Ancient Judah, not Ancient Israel (Ezra 10:9). Ancient Israel, the Northern Kingdom, received the promises of numerous descendants and “many nations.” Therefore, I see these “multitudes of nations” as: 1. The descendants of Abraham, the “father of many nations.” (Genesis 17:4-6) This covenant was so important, that it is repeated 3 times in these 3 verses. 2. The descendants of Jacob, who would be “a nation and a company of nations.” (Genesis 35:11) 3. The descendants of Jacob’s son Joseph and Joseph’s sons Ephraim and Manasseh. Ephraim held the birthright. (1 Chronicles 5:2.) Ephraim’s “offspring shall become a multitude of nations.” Ephraim and Manasseh were half Egyptian. (Genesis 41:45) This might give them slightly different characteristics than those of the children of Judah. 4. The “House of Israel.” Israel’s name would be perpetuated in Ephraim and Manasseh and they would become a multitude in the midst of the earth. (Genesis 48:16, 19) The house of Israel is not the house of Judah. (1 Kings 12:21) 5. Christian nations who, in the last days, (Genesis 49:1) would be attacked by others but retain their military strength and “were made strong and active by the hands of the Mighty God of Jacob, by the name of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel.” (Genesis 49:24) “ . . . shall come a Ruler Who will govern and shepherd My people Israel. (Matthew 2:6) He answered, I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 10:6) Jesus Christ has been a shepherd to the house of Israel, but not to the house of Judah. He was not rejected by the house of Israel, but the house of Judah, his own. 6. Nations with blessings of vast natural resources, good climate and large populations. (Genesis 49:25, Deuteronomy 33:13-16) 7. The firstborn of God and are in the isles and coastlands far away. (Jeremiah 31:9-10) 8. In the Isles and coastlands. (Isaiah 49:1) 9. The descendants of the 7,000 of Israel, which the Lord reserved for himself, who were carried into captivity by Assyria. (1 Kings 20) They lost their identity, yet they would be “as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered.” (Hosea 1:10). This is why I see the “multitude of Nations” as being the Christian Anglo-Saxon nations. It seems to be to be the logical and consistent meaning of these scriptures. As you pointed out, those of other physical descent who have accepted Jesus Christ have also become the children of Abraham. That fulfills prophesy of “all families” being blessed in Jesus, but not the prophesies of a “multitude of Nations” or descendants as “sand of the sea.” If anyone can show me scripture that contradicts or expands on these thoughts, I would very much like to see them. Thanks again, Hoth |
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25 | What about Jacob-Israel and Ephraim? | Gen 17:6 | HOTH | 175777 | ||
Hi ekletos, I hope you enjoyed your visit and it wasn’t too hot for you. You wrote: “I think you may be taking this as 'literal nations' that would evolve from Abraham's seed.” I am speaking of literal nations of peoples who are descendants of Abraham. These nations would go hand in hand with God’s promise to Abraham that his descendants would be as the stars or sand of the sea, too numerous to count. The promise of the Seed, Jesus Christ, was not a birthright promise. The promise of multiple nations and descendants were birthright promises. 1 Chron 5:2 “Judah prevailed above his brethren, and from him came the prince and leader [and eventually the Messiah]; yet the birthright was Joseph's.” God promised Jacob that he would be a “nation and a company of nations”, just as he had promised Abraham he would be a “father of many nations.” Jacob gave that blessing to Ephraim, the son of Joseph. Joseph is not an ancestor of the promised Seed in which all the families of the earth would be blessed. Therefore, the fulfillment of this promise of “many nations” does not refer to spiritual descendants or those which have faith in Christ. However, I think it is possible they could be the same as the actual descendants of Abraham. God set the boundaries of the nations according to the number of the Israelites, who would be so numerous in the last days. Deu 32:8-9 The fulfillment was not in Ancient Judah or Ancient Israel or in modern Israel. In Genesis 49 Jacob tells his sons where they will be in the “last days”. He told Joseph, the holder of the birthright, the following; “ 22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a well (spring or fountain), whose branches run over the wall. 23Skilled archers have bitterly attacked and sorely worried him; they have shot at him and persecuted him. 24But his bow remained strong and steady and rested in the Strength that does not fail him, for the arms of his hands were made strong and active by the hands of the Mighty God of Jacob, by the name of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel, 25By the God of your father, Who will help you, and by the Almighty, Who will bless you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings lying in the deep beneath, blessings of the breasts and of the womb. 26The blessings of your father [on you] are greater than the blessings of my forefathers [Abraham and Isaac on me] and are as lasting as the bounties of the eternal hills; they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him who was the consecrated one and the one separated from his brethren and [the one who] is prince among them. Hoth |
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26 | What about Jacob-Israel and Ephraim? | Gen 17:6 | HOTH | 175146 | ||
Dear Doc, Thank you for the heads-up! Hoth |
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