Results 181 - 200 of 361
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Author: Bill Mc Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
181 | Small "s" or not? | 1 John 3:24 | Bill Mc | 16570 | ||
Ray, I agree. The word 'spirit' has many different meanings in the Bible. It can mean an entity, an attitude, a demon, the essence of something, etc. I think there are about 11 different meanings to it in the NT alone. That is why we must look at the context for the meaning. My opinion on the Spirit of God leaving Christ still 'holds water.' As I said in my post, I believe that the Spirit of God was rejoined permanently to Christ's human spirit at the resurrection and they are now one. And, Ray, that Spirit does not give life to our mortal bodies AFTER we die. That is a contradiction. Our bodies, after we die, will be IMMORTAL ones, not mortal. That is the whole point that Paul is trying to make. The same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead will also give eternal life to your MORTAL bodies, here and now. God's Spirit gives eternal life, indeed it is the source: John 6:63 - It is the Spirit who gives life. He does this in the here and now when we come to Christ: Rom 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but ALIVE to God in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet THE SPIRIT IS ALIVE (present tense) because of righteousness. Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, MADE us ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved). Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He MADE YOU ALIVE together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions. Eternal life (spiritual life) does not start when we die. It starts the minute you put faith and trust in Christ and He dwells in you through the Holy Spirit. You also seem to be implying (maybe I'm reading your post wrong) that the Holy Spirit/the Spirit of God/the Spirit of Christ is NOT part of the Trinity i.e. that He is not God. If that is what you are implying then we need to settle that first before we discuss any 'spiritual power.' In Christ (and His Spirit), Bill Mc |
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182 | Forgiveness - part 3 of 3 | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16569 | ||
Tim, one small note. You said, 'Because, forgiveness of sins was obtained through the sin sacrifice, not through forgiving others. So, what part did forgiveness of others play in our forgiveness.' Even under the New Covenant, with Christ as the once for all sacrifice, not everyone has received that forgiveness. Yes, I believe in unlimited propitiation :), but I belive that forgiveness is PROVIDED for at the cross and RECEIVED at conversion. Why? Because forgiveness in the NT is only found IN CHRIST. Similarly, the OT sacrifices PROVIDED for forgiveness but, is it possible (see my other post here) that it was only received by faith? Forgiveness of others would play a part here, as I have stated concerning Matt 5:23,24. |
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183 | Forgiveness, is it conditional? | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16568 | ||
Dear Tim, Please let me respond to your questions and, if you could add anything further, I would be interested and most appreciative. 1) Yes, I believe that forgiveness was obtained through the animal sacrifice in the OT. However, did God just issue a, for lack of a better word, 'blanket forgiveness' for everyone? Or did He actually look at individual's hearts and accept the offering based upon their attitudes? I am not honestly 100 percent sure here. I know that He told Saul, "Obedience is better than sacrifice." I.e. 'Don't just do what YOU want to do, and then come to Me with a sin offering and think that I HAVE to accept it.' I'm not sure where the scripture reference is (help me out here), but in one place God said something to the effect of, 'Stop your offerings, they are making Me sick because your hearts are far from Me.' Sorry that I can remember the reference or exact wording. So, I think a strong case can be made that, just like in salvation, the people needed to exercise faith in what God provided and God honored and responded to that faith. Is this way Christ told them to, basically, check their hearts before offering their sacrifice? Obviously, in the OT, the sacrificial system required that the offerings be made, but did everyone place their faith in them? Probably not. So was everyone forgiven just because they brought an offering? I don't think so. There was even a problem between Cain and Abel's offerings (I know, different type). But you know, Tim, I can't count the times in the past that I have gone to the altar (under the New Covenant obviously) to seek forgiveness when my own heart was not right? I just wanted forgiveness without being changed. God always sees my heart. And He KNOWS if I am sincere. As you know from my infamous 1 John 1:9 post, I no longer ask for forgiveness. It is not faith to ask for what God has already given me. But it is faith to thank Him for it and ask Him to show me where I am not walking in the Spirit, where I sin, where I am still walking in the flesh. So, yes I 'confess', I agree with God, but I don't ask for forgiveness. 2) I still don't feel that forgiveness is conditional. I do believe in concept of unlimited atonement (but I wouldn't use that word. Atonement is no where found in the Greek NT and I think that it reinforces that Christ's blood only 'covers' as opposed to takes away our sins). But you and I disagree as to what folks call 'eternal security' for reasons that we have already discussed. I see a way too many scriptures in the proper New Covenant (after Christ's death) that substantiate that we are baptized into Christ, united with Him, made a new creation, adopted by God, made alive with Him, born again, called children of God, citizens of heaven, made complete in Him, heirs of God, indwelt by His Spirit, partakers of the Divine nature, reconciled to God, redeemed, made righteous, called saints, saved, sealed, translated out of darkness into light, etc. (What a mouthful) If it is true that we can stop being all these things and remove ourselves from God and His forgiveness, I sure wish He would have prodded the NT writers to discuss it more fully and with greater clarity. If you can 'lose your salvation' or whatever label you want to stick on it, it seems like something with such dire consequences (ending up in Hell) would have been addressed much more than 2 or 3 verses of 'if you continue.' :) I'm not poking fun, but I do recall our prior interaction and, no, I still don't have an answer. Well, my fingers are getting tired... Thanks again, Tim. Grow in grace. In Him, Bill Mc |
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184 | Forgiveness - Part 2 of 3 | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16567 | ||
Dear Tim, please don't think that I am regulating everything that Christ said (or even the entire Sermon on the Mount) to only applying to the Old Covenant. If you have perceived that that is what I'm saying, then either I missed something in my explanation or you have misunderstood me. Christ did often teach and uphold the law. But our Lord often exercised grace and mercy one on one. Consider the woman caught in adultery. The law said that for her sin, she should die. Christ NEVER rescinded that. Instead, He took it to a heart issue and caught the self-righteous in their own trap. But, to the adulteress He said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." People will sometimes read my comments and say, 'Bill is a Pauline.' Or, 'Bill doesn't believe that anything Jesus said is applicable to the Christian.' That allegation is simply not true. And I am not trying to set myself up as the judge of what applies and what does not. But I do feel that certain issues, forgiveness being one of those issues, were dealt with COMPLETELY at the cross. We, as Christians, MUST understand what happened at the cross and the resurrection if we are to properly understand Christ's teachings. I.e., if the OT means of providing forgiveness was sufficient, then why did Christ die to provide another way? Why didn't He just leave the animal sacrifice system alone? Why? Because that system pointed to HIM and what HE would do. Hebrews says time after time how superior the New Covenant, the new High Priest, the new priesthood, the new sacrifice is to the old. As I've tried to show in these posts, ultimate forgiveness was provided at the cross. Almost everything that Christ said about the cross and His death related to sins and forgiveness. So, to me, the cross is the final word on the forgiveness of sins for mankind. Is the Sermon on the Mount a presentation of the Kingdom of God? Surely. Christ was dealing with the attitudes of the heart and their subsequent actions. Much of what He says is of the style, 'the law says...but I tell you...' And He told the people that unless their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees (letter-of-the-law righteousness) they would not enter the kingdom of heaven. He covers many topics here: personal relationships, giving to the poor, fasting, true wealth, anxiety, judging others, prayer, etc. Does the cross deal DIRECTLY with these issues? No, not directly. But our lives AFTER the cross does. And if your walk with the Lord is anything like mine, believe me, the Holy Spirit deals with me on these issues. But the forgiveness issue is dealt with DIRECTLY at the cross. That is while I feel that a subsequent revelation (complete forgiveness through Christ's sacrifice) supercedes what He taught here. Could I be wrong? Yes. I could be. And like my 1 John 1:9 post, challenge me. Where, after the cross, does God say 'forgive or you will not be forgiven.' (If you do, let's start another thread, OK?) I am not saying that I will resort to this tactic for every argument. But, dear Tim, you know, if you're a pastor, many, many Christians are confused about the forgiveness of sins. Why do you think this topic is such a hot one on the forum? There must be an answer. We are all seeking it. Thanks for your kind critique. Keep me challenged. Blessings to you, brother Tim. In Christ, Bill Mc |
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185 | Small "s" or not? | 1 John 3:24 | Bill Mc | 16547 | ||
Sure, Ray, I'll bite ;) I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at with this question. But if you're saying that there is a difference between the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) and the Spirit of Christ, I would say that my answer is that they are now forever joined. We know that Jesus, while on earth, had the Holy Spirt (the Spirit of God) in Him. However, being fully human also, He had a human spirit. Fortunately for us, His human spirit was not from Adam's lineage for it was not dead to God. It was what Paul would call 'alive to God.' He had a union with God's Spirit until He was made sin on our behalf on the cross. As the sins of the whole world were placed upon our Savior, the Spirit of God departed from Him (sorry, no book, chapter, or verse for this - it is my opinion) and He cried out, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me" - Matt 27:46. Later, as He chose the moment to die, He yielded up His human spirit - Matt 27:50. When God raised Christ from the dead by the power of the Spirit of God, Rom 8:11, Christ human spirit was forever joined to the Holy Spirit. Now, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit/Spirit of God are forever unitied and can be used interchangeably. In fact, Romans 8:9 does so: However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. Likewise, when we become believers, our human spirits are united with God's Spirit/the Holy Spirit/Christ's Spirit: 1 Cor 6:17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. There's my take. If you really want to discuss capitalization, I'm probably not the one to do so with as I have no background in how the translators chose when to capitalize and when not to. But, the doctrines of the Holy Spirit rest upon the functions of the Spirit, not whether the word is capitalized or not. Hope this answers your question. In Christ (and His Spirit), Bill Mc |
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186 | Bill Mc, Are you twisting Scripture? | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16543 | ||
Dear Joe, Please see my 3 part post (way down below) on forgiveness. I explain my reasoning there. Thanks for your interaction. In Him, Bill Mc |
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187 | Forgiveness - part 3 of 3 | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16541 | ||
Forgiveness - part 3 of 3 (pant, pant) Now can Christ’s statement, “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, then your heavenly Father will not forgive your transgression” be true after the cross? I submit that it cannot. See these verses: Col 2:13 - When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us ALL our transgressions. Eph 4:32 - Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also HAS FORGIVEN you. Col 3:13 - bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord FORGAVE you, so also should you. We now, as New Testament believers, forgive as, because, we HAVE BEEN forgiven. When were we forgiven ALL our sins? At the cross. Our forgiveness is part of our redemption – Eph 1:7; Col 1:14. It is no longer, I believe, conditional. The ultimate sin offering, the body of Christ has been made once-for-all – 1 Pet 3:18; Heb 9:26; Heb 10:12,14. Forgiveness of sins is secured. It is finished! So, what happens if a Christian does not forgive? According to scripture, we will give an account for what we do in our bodies – Rom 14:10-12. There is still rewards to be had. But I don’t believe that we will not be forgiven. There is too many verses that say otherwise. In closing, please see Heb 10:17,18. This is an important verse that describes one of the blessings that we, as well as future Israel, participate in under the New Covenant. God says here that He remembers our sins no more. Do we believe this verse? Isn’t Christ the mediator of this Covenant? Why does God remember our sins no more? Is it because He is having memory problems? Hardly. It is because of verse 18. It is because there IS forgiveness for ALL sins for ALL mankind for ALL time. This forgiveness exists. But it is only received upon placing one’s faith and trust in Jesus Christ’s sacrifice that was made 2000 years ago – Acts 10:43; Acts 26:18. Is there any other offering for sin? Not according to verse 18. Christ’s offering was COMPLETELY sufficient. We need to rest in that. We need to be thankful for that sacrifice and proclaim to the world, “To Him who loves us and released us from our sins BY HIS BLOOD – and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father – to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. – Rev 1:5 - Bill Mc I hope this helps. I hope it answers your question. And, though you may not agree with me, that's OK, at least you know the reason for the hope within me. Blessings in Christ, Bill Mc |
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188 | Forgiveness - Part 2 of 3 | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16540 | ||
Forgiveness - Part 2 or 3 That being said, we must understand that when Christ was physically here on earth, the Old Covenant was still in full effect. Gal 4:4 states that Christ was born under law (Old Covenant law) and most of His teaching surrounded it. He Himself said that He did not come to abolish it, with His life, but to fulfill it. And having fulfilled the Old Covenant perfectly, He has brought in a New Covenant, a covenant of grace. Now, let’s take a look at the passage in question, Matthew 6:14: “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.” I feel that the best explanation of this passage can be found in Matt 5:23, 24: "Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.” Here we see that Jesus says, ‘If you bring your offering to the altar (obviously a sin offering), and there remember that there’s a problem between you and your brother (another Jew), leave your offering, go make things right with your brother, then come back and offer your sacrifice.’ The Jews as a people, at this point in time, only knew of only one way to get forgiveness of sins – animal sacrifice. This system was still operational while Christ walked the earth. They understood that. It was the only system that they had every known for having their sins forgiven. And Christ never refuted it during His earthly life. Rather, He upheld the law. But He was also trying to get His listeners to look beyond the ceremony and tradition to see their hearts as God saw them. So He admonished them (my loose paraphrase), ‘If you’re coming to get forgiven by God, don’t just go through the motions. The law is summed up in loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself. So, yes, forgiveness is provided for you. But go beyond the requirements of the law and see that God cares about relationships. Try to heal those and then seek God’s provision of forgiveness and it will mean something to you.’ Christ condemned religious tradition for the sake of tradition alone. He wanted people to get past the rules to the relationships. So He says, ‘Forgive your brother, THEN come and offer your sacrifice. He NEVER said, ‘Don’t offer your sacrifice at the temple.’ Why not? Because that system, that pointed to His once-for-all sacrifice, had not YET been done away with. So why doesn’t He mention sacrifice in Matthew 6:14? I feel that it is because the Jews already knew what, under law, was required to provide forgiveness. If you had told a Jew at that time, “You sinned, you need forgiveness,” he would have tried to find an appropriate sacrifice and trotted off to the temple. But Christ was trying to show them that God looks on the heart. End of part 2 - see part 3 |
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189 | Tim, here is my explanation - 3 parts | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16539 | ||
Dear Tim, I'll post this as a question so that you'll be able to see it (and hopefully Steve also). Sorry it's taken so long to answer but it took me a while to get all my thoughts organized, type it out, and try to keep it as concise as possible. Please, please look up the scripture references. Don't believe it just because I say it (I'm probably not risking that danger here on the forum anyway). It's in 3 parts. Here goes: Let’s start by laying down a couple of foundational principles concerning the forgiveness of sins: 1) The wages of sin is death – Rom 6:23; Eze 18:4. Why? Because, in God’s economy, He has stipulated that disobeying Him results in forfeiture of life. This ‘life’ is primarily spiritual life (union with God), with physical death being a picture of spiritual death (separation from God). When Adam and Eve sinned, they spiritually died that very day although they physically died much later – Gen 2:17. This forfeiture of life is physically represented by the shedding of blood, where Lev 17:11 says that physical life dwells. Therefore, whenever anyone sins, they deserve to be spiritually separated from God (spiritually dead) with physical death as an illustration of that principle. But God, not wanting His creation to be or remain separate from Him, provided forgiveness for sins by the shedding of blood – Heb 9:22. This, I believe is the only means of providing forgiveness for sins. 2) Only God can forgive sins – Mark 2:7. Why? Because, being holy and righteous, sins are a personal offense against Him and His character. 3) God devised two ways of administering forgiveness of sins to mankind. In the Old Testament (Covenant), God, in His mercy, allowed animal blood to be shed in substitution for human blood. This mainly had to be done once a year by the high priest on the Day of Atonement. This animal blood covered ‘atoned for’ sins but did not take them away – Heb 10:11; Heb 10:4. Why? Because the animals had not sinned, man had. And although God personally took no pleasure in the sacrifices Heb 10:6,8, under law, He allowed them to be made. While the animal sacrifices covered sins, those sins were actually not paid for by human blood until Christ died at the cross. Heb 9:15 makes this clear. So… 4) Under the New Testament (Covenant), God, in amazing grace and mercy, accepted the sinless blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, as full payment for the sins of all mankind. This propitiation on Christ’s behalf ‘takes away’ the sins of all mankind (those born before the cross and those born after) permanently – Rom 3:25; Heb 2:17; Heb 9:26; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10. 5) So, Christ death and shedding of blood on the cross becomes the focal point of the whole forgiveness issue. His precious blood took away all sins for all people for all time. It was an eternal act of God, being executed in time but not bound by it – Heb 4:3. His death is what ushered in the New Covenant of which He is the mediator. Heb 9:16,17 makes it clear that the New Covenant, Testament, Will (all the same word in Greek) did not go into effect until the death of the One who made it. Even in our society, your will, if you have one, does not go into effect until the day you die. Once you die, your will cannot be changed or revised and all wills prior to your last one are null and void. And, I believe, that the Old Will (Covenant) is no longer binding – Heb 8:13; Heb 10:9,10. It was only a shadow of the reality of Christ in us, the hope of glory – Heb 10:1. End of part 1 - See part 2 |
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190 | Bill Mc, Are you twisting Scripture? | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16467 | ||
Yes, Joe, I know that you hold to that view. I respect your view, brother, and, from reading your previous post, I understand it. I just view it from a different perspective. Christ said that all the commands are summed up in loving God and loving others. These are what He called the two greatest commands. Where I agree with you, Joe, is that IF we love God and love others, we WILL HAVE ACTIONS that prove, substantiate, validate this love. I will not dispute that. But we love God and love others because He FIRST loved us and loved others, and, because He is in us, He now does that through us (i.e. I could NEVER love the terrorists by my own strength and estimation of what love is). My motivation for love is from Christ in me, not from a motivation of 'Christ said do this...so I better do it.' Thanks for your comments. In Him, Bill Mc |
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191 | Will I go to heavan | Eph 2:8 | Bill Mc | 16451 | ||
Hi chico98092, all of us have experienced doubts from time to time concerning where we stand with God. Often, it is because we are looking at our own lives and our own inconsistencies as a gauge for determining whether our salvation 'took' or not. But, my friend, as your reference verse says, salvation is a gift. It cannot be earned. As a gift, it can only be accepted. One of the problems people face with doubts is that they think, 'Now that I've accepted Christ, I'll get everything right.' And, inevitably, when we (or things) go wrong, we focus on our failures. So we mistakenly think that salvation is 'living like Jesus.' And who amongst us can do that? So when we fail, we wonder, am I really saved? There can only be two answers to that question: Yes, I am, but I'm not living the abundant life that Christ promised and I need reassurance OR No, I'm not. Only God alone knows our hearts but it does help to understand what salvation is and, sometimes, what it is not. Please permit me to share this with you. This has helped me to understand what true salvation is. It is very important to look at the scripture references. That is where truth is found. 1) Man's problem is that he is born spiritually dead to God and is in need of life. See Rom 5:12; Eph 2:1 2) God's solution to man's problem is to provide that life through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. See John 3:16; Rom 6:23 3) Before God could give us His life, sins had to be forgiven. See John 1:29; Heb 10:17,18 4) The Good News of the gospel is that 'It is Finished' - we have been, through Christ's death, reconciled to God. See 2 Cor 5:18,19; Rom 5:10 5) In Christ, you are a new creation. See 2 Cor 5:17; Rom 8:1,2 6) So our decision is to turn from our unbelief and receive Jesus Christ as our life. See Eph 2:8,9; John 5:24 7) So salvation is being saved from the wages of sin (spiritual death) by the gift of God (spiritual life). Chico, many people have come to Christ for the forgiveness that He offers but that is only one-half of the gospel. Christ provided forgiveness of our sins so that He can actually dwell IN us. Christ did not come so that He could just get men out of Hell and into Heaven. He came so that He could get Himself out of Heaven and back into man, His most-loved creation. If we understand that Christ is our life and we can say with Paul, 'I no longer live but Christ lives in me' then here are a few more helpful thoughts: Abide in Christ - John 15:5 Walk in truth - John 8:31,32 Grow in God's grace - Titus 2:11-14 Renew your mind through God's Word - Rom 12:2 Feed on God's Word - Matt 4:4 Be encouraged (and encourage other believers) - Heb 10:25 Be strengthened by God's faithfulness - Rom 8:28 Give thanks in everything (even your weaknesses so they show you your need to rely always on Christ) - 1 Thess 5:18 I hope and pray this helps you, dear brother. In Christ, Bill Mc |
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192 | Bill Mc, Are you twisting Scripture? | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16447 | ||
Dear Joe, I agree. True faith is demonstrated by abiding in Christ and He is faithful to fulfill His commandments in us. Thank God that He has grafted us into the one "Good Tree". We can now draw our life from the true Vine and bear fruit for God. PTL. In Christ, Bill Mc |
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193 | Bill Mc, Are you twisting Scripture? | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16446 | ||
Joe, I know. If you have time, read the rest of my comments here. I was trying to show Steve that not everything that Christ said is directly applicable to the 'modern' believer. If you read the rest of my comments, you'll see where I was trying to go with this. I agree 100 percent with what you say about this passage. In Him, Bill Mc |
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194 | Does this passage mention Christ? | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16444 | ||
Thank you for interaction on this topic. Grow in grace. In Christ, Bill Mc | ||||||
195 | Shouldn't we obey ALL God's Word? | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16443 | ||
Thanks, brothers, for your input, comments and that illustration. The Lord bless you both for the seeds you sow here. In Him, Bill Mc | ||||||
196 | I do agree with most of your post, but.. | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16372 | ||
Thanks for your clarification. Christians DO live differently. Thanks for your Etymology (sounds like a medical procedure :)) We disagree on the forgiveness issue though. I believe it is a done deal. Christ prayed this prayer BEFORE He provided total forgiveness for sins at the cross. And that's OK if we disagree (on my side anyway). I just take issue with the 'forgive or God won't forgive you' view. See Eph 4:32; Col 3:13. Thanks again. Blessings in Christ, Bill Mc |
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197 | Why the forgiveness strawman? | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16365 | ||
schwartzkm, great post. I agree. Tyndale has indeed echoed what I have been trying to say. He says, those 'men who have experienced (past tense) God's forgiveness are accountable to display forgiveness toward others.' Yes, we will give an account of our attitudes and actions while in the body. But I believe that there is a HUGE difference between saying that we will give an account and that we ARE NOT FORGIVEN as I understand Steve to be saying. Steve has reinforced that principle time and again. I, obviously, view the chasm as wider that you do. But the way his original question is asks supports his assertion. He says, "Did you forgive the Tuesday terrorist?" He then quotes Matthew 6:14 to substantiate that if people have not forgiven the terrorists, then God will not forgive their sins. I see this as a gross misinterpretation of the forgiveness that the cross of Christ provided for the believer. We must all decide for ourselves (hopefully through the study of God's Word) what we believe about the forgiveness of sins. But I think scripture supports the view that our forgiveness rests upon Christ's work on the cross alone. I will not back down from that view and I will try, as best as I can, to share it in the spirit of love. Thanks for your comments, Bill Mc |
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198 | I do agree with most of your post, but.. | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16362 | ||
Dear schwartkm, I agree with most of your post. But I am not a Paulian. I am a Christian. The same Jesus that walked the face of the earth appeared to Paul and reveal the gospel to him. The same Spirit that indwelt Christ indwelt Paul to the extent that Paul said, "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me." And I am in no way trying to nullify all the teachings of Christ. But, as even you have stated, there is a progressive revelation in scripture. Why do you think Peter was so relunctant to hang out with the Gentiles. The disciples were amazed that the Gentiles could come to God through Christ. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I disagree with your definition of a Christian. Please hear me out on this. A Christian is not one who follows the teachings of Christ. It is much deeper than our futile attempts to mimic the Son of God. No one has EVER completely followed the teachings of Christ. Christ said, "Be perfect. How perfect? As perfect as your Father in heaven." Has anyone 'followed' this teaching? I think not. God's standard is perfection, our attempts to follow are insufficient. By that definition, Christians are those who follow the teachings of Christ, we are never completely Christians for none of us can do it perfectly. A Christian is one who has Christ living IN THEM - Romans 8:9-11. This is the essence of Christianity, Christ IN you, the hope of glory. Merely trying to follow Christ's teachings is not true Christianity because our 'trying' will always fall short. Being a Christian is a change of identity. It is anologous to a caterpillar changing into a butterfly. No matter how hard the caterpillar reads the flight manuals or follows the butterfly's teaching, he cannot do what the butterfly does (fly) because his nature is still a caterpillar. He can try to fly all he wants but he will always fall short. But, through a miracle, the caterpillar is changed into a butterfly. Only then can he do what butterflies are designed to do. Until we see that we are, indeed, new creations in Christ, we will be forever trying to follow the teachings of our Lord and failing. When we do come to realize that 'old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new', Christ Spirit inside us will fulfill God's own requirements through us. He who began a good work in you WILL BE faithful to complete it. It is God at work IN you to do His will. Please don't take this as a rebuke, schwartkm. It is not intended that way. It is intended as a clarification of the truth that you stated. In Christ, Bill Mc |
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199 | Why the forgiveness strawman? | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16356 | ||
Dear schwartzkm, Yes this is a strawman. I am attempting to demonstrate that it is dangerous to take one scripture (in this case Matthew 6:14) and say that this applies to all people for all time, and that it is the heart of the forgiveness issue. And while I know that no Christian group teaches OT sacrifice, I feel that my argument is a valid one. I have not used the sabbath because the central issue here is the forgiveness of sins and I am trying to stay with that subject. Forgiveness of sins has always been based upon Hebrews 9:22, the shedding of blood. This forgiveness was credited in the OT by the atonement (covering) of the blood of animals (which pointed to Christ). The forgiveness of sins in the NT is secured by the shedding of our Lord's blood - nothing else. Steve's point is that, in his view, looking only at Matthew 6:14, forgiveness is based upon forgiving others. If this view is correct, then Christ's death and blood was unneccessary, indeed needless. All we would have to do to get forgiveness of our sins from God is to forgive our fellow man for their sins and this act alone would make us right or wrong with a holy God. Does the rest of NT scripture substantiate this lop-sided view? In Christ, Bill Mc |
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200 | Does this passage mention Christ? | Matt 6:14 | Bill Mc | 16354 | ||
Steve, If you then go to Christ, then two observations must be made: 1) You have violated this passage. This passage says nothing about 'going to Christ'. According to this passage, this is not an option. No mention of Christ is made here whatsoever. God says to bring a lamb or goat. Granted, you do have the option of bringing two turtledoves, two pigeons or a tenth of an ephah of fine flour. But this passage makes no mention of any other offering being acceptable. 2) You cannot go to Christ. Christ is physically seated at the right hand of God. How can you get there? And how would you get your lamb, goat or other offering there? If we go strictly by this passage, and throw out any future revelation of God's plan of grace and forgiveness, then you have violated this means of forgiveness, my friend. Can't you see how foolish it is to 'camp' on older revelation and not accept the newer? Matthew 6:14 is the same. You cannot say, 'If I don't forgive, then God won't forgive' and also say, 'God has forgiven all my sins.' They are mutually exclusive. In Him, Bill Mc |
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