Results 181 - 200 of 464
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Results from: Notes Author: Sir Pent Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
181 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61867 | ||
Personal Note ...................................... Dear John, Sounds like a good mission. There are obviously limitations to any conversation that can only be carried out with the written word. Lacking tone of voice, body language, facial expression, etc. can often make interpretation difficult. It is therefore very important that we all dilligently try to "assertain the intended meaning" of posts before responding. You make a great point. ................................................ P.S. Having started on this forum over a year ago, I am glad that I can say, "to the best of my knowledge I have never been in a hot debate with anyone here". |
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182 | Physical sports contests? | Col 3:17 | Sir Pent | 61865 | ||
Personal Note ....................................... Dear Cyclist, I'm glad that it was helpful. We haven't had a lot of interaction on the forum in the past, but I look foward to sharing future threads together. |
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183 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61842 | ||
I'm still waiting for your response ...................... Dear John, What are your thoughts on the rest of this post? ............................................ Arminians, on the other hand, interpret those same verses differently. The believe that God has the ability to absolutely control the universe, but that He chooses not to excersize that ability at all times. Instead, they believe that God has created humans in such a way that they have both the FREEDOM and ABILITY to choose whether to love God or not. However, since God is simply choosing not to excersize His ability to determine every choice, they believe that God is still supremely powerful and sovereign. ............................................... The interesting thing is that both perspectives claim that God is sovereign. Arminians generally understand that the Calvinist perspective, even if they disagree with it, leads to a belief in a soverign God. However, Calvinists generally are under the impression that Arminian perspective, even if they disagree with it, DOES NOT lead to a belief in a sovereign God. I propose that this impression is wrong, and I am asking that someone to explain, using scripture and reason, why Calvinists believe that. Not why they believe Arminianism is wrong, but why they believe that it is impossible for God to be sovereign in that perspective. |
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184 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61838 | ||
Clarification ...................................... Dear John, You took one sentance from my post out of the context that it was in and then claimed that its meaning was unclear. Let's put it back in context and look at it. ...................................... I said, "You want to discuss specific scripture verses to prove that Calvinism is correct. I’m not interested. You have already done that with other people on this forum, and I don’t seek redundancy. The purpose of this thread is solely to discuss whether it is possible for a person with an Arminian perspective to believe in a sovereign God." ...................................... I believe that when read in context it is obvious that I my "prohibition" as you call it was very specific. I was not prohibiting all scripture from being used. Instead I was trying to maintain the focus of this thread by avoiding scriptures that merely support Calvinism in general (which would have been redundant with other threads that do that very thing). ...................................... I think that in context, my meaning was clear. However, it appears that JRdoc did misunderstand what I said, becuase he referred to me in a different thread as trying to prohibit from posting anything on this forum at all. Therefore, I did reply to him (in that thread) to clear up any misunderstanding that might have been there. |
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185 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61747 | ||
Definition of Calvinist perspective ..................... Dear John, Very well, for subsequent posts, I'll try to use the following definition for your perspective: .......................................... “God unchangeably ordains everything that comes to pass. Yet neither is God the author of sin, nor is the will of the humans forced. Nor is the possibility of indirect causes of actions removed, but rather established.” .......................................... So what are your thoughts on the rest of post 61691? |
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186 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61738 | ||
Simplification of Calvinist statement ..................................... Dear John, I’m fine with using the official statement, but would it be OK if I simplify it slightly for understanding sake. The original statement you gave was: “God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3] “ ..................................... I propose the following simplification: ..................................... “God unchangeably ordains everything that comes to pass. Yet neither is God the author of sin, nor is the will of the humans removed. Nor is the possibility of indirect causes of actions removed, but rather established.” ..................................... I have tried to change as little as possible while retaining the meaning and increasing the likelihood of understanding. Is this alright? ..................................... I read all your “proof texts”, and understand that you could easily come to the conclusion that you do based upon them. I am looking forward to your response to the rest of my previous post. |
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187 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61691 | ||
Clarification ............................................... Dear John, It appears that our thread has been restricted and will no longer appear on the general webpage. I suppose that is good if we are unable to come to consensus as everyone seems to believe, however, I think it would be a shame if we actually were able to resolve this issue and noone could see it. ............................................... It seems that you are a bit confused about my question, so I’ll try to explain it more clearly. Calvinists have one perspective on interpreting scripture. They read verses to say that God has absolute control which He excersizes at all times to dictate everything that happens. They believe that within the box, people actually have FREEDOM to make choices, but that those choices are completely controlled by the ABILITIES that God grants. Thus, they believe that God is supremely powerful and sovereign. ............................................... Arminians, on the other hand, interpret those same verses differently. The believe that God has the ability to absolutely control the universe, but that He chooses not to excersize that ability at all times. Instead, they believe that God has created humans in such a way that they have both the FREEDOM and ABILITY to choose whether to love God or not. However, since God is simply choosing not to excersize His ability to determine every choice, they believe that God is still supremely powerful and sovereign. ............................................... The interesting thing is that both perspectives claim that God is sovereign. Arminians generally understand that the Calvinist perspective, even if they disagree with it, leads to a belief in a soverign God. However, Calvinists generally are under the impression that Arminian perspective, even if they disagree with it, DOES NOT lead to a belief in a sovereign God. I propose that this impression is wrong, and I am asking that someone to explain, using scripture and reason, why Calvinists believe that. Not why they believe Arminianism is wrong, but why they believe that it is impossible for God to be sovereign in that perspective. ............................................... Thus far, I have found you to be a person who is well educated in the doctrines of Calvinism, with a firm grasp of scripture, and the rare ability to at least begin to understand Arminianism, even though you don’t agree with it. Therefore, I hope that if anyone would be able to answer this question, you might be the one to do it. Out of respect for some of my other colleagues here at the forum, I should mention that I there are others such as Reformer Joe who could fit this description. |
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188 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61594 | ||
Dear John, Please let me clarify. You said, “You have granted that, at least fom my perspective, the Bible may indicate God's absolute control over all things. What I am interested in is what do those verse say from your perspective. “ Actually I am proposing that those verses say the say thing regardless of whether you are a C or A. I am saying that both perspectives believe that God has absolute control and is sovereign. It seems the burden of proof is on the C perspective to provide verses that show that the A perspective makes the sovereignity of God impossible. |
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189 | there's many denomination yet 1 spirit | Eph 5:1 | Sir Pent | 61584 | ||
Correction ........................................................ JRdoc, It appears that you misunderstood a previous post of mine. I did not say that I wished you to stop posting on this forum in general. I hope that you continue to participate here, for I feel that you could learn much from many of my esteemed colleagues here. I also believe that you have ideas to offer that would be of benefit to myself and others here. My actual admonition was not to cease posting anywhere in the forum, but rather to cease posting on one particular subject, in one particular thread, which I am involved in. ........................................................ That thread is one with a very specific purpose, which must be maintained because it is very close to a very large sensitive topic that would quickly get out of control otherwise. That is why I made that statement to you and to my colleague Hank. You are welcome to post to any other thread on this forum to your heart’s delight, as far as I’m concerned. In fact, you may even post in that thread that I was talking about as long as you stay on the specific topic being addressed. ........................................................ I hope that I have now made myself clear. |
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190 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61582 | ||
Personal Note ............................................... Dear John, I would prefer not to completely drop the terms “calvinism” and “arminianism” becuase they are quick ways to identify certain perspectives of Biblical interpretation. I do agree that we should continue to avoid trying to justify their respective teachings as such. I also encourage the use of scripture as long as it relates specifically to our laser focus of the sovereignity of God. Therefore, keeping all this in mind, I look forward to your response to my post number 61495. Thanks again for continuing to post to this topic with kindness towards me and focusing on the topic, I will try to do the same towards you. |
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191 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61566 | ||
Personal Note ...................................... Dear Hank and JRdoc, I would ask that neither of you continue this discussion on this thread. I forsee this only enlarging again into the whole C and A debate. I am trying very hard to maintain a laser focus in this thread to discover if there can be consensus on one very specific point, and the two of you going back and forth about all the other related issues will only muddy the waters. |
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192 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61540 | ||
Personal Note, Oops ..................................... Dear JRdoc, I apologize for calling you by the wrong name. I assumed that it was John Reformed who was responding to my last post, since he and I have been pretty much exclusively responding on this topic (not that others aren’t welcome, just that most others have given up all hope of reaching consensus on anything related to C and A). So again, I’m sorry for any confusion I might have caused. ..................................... Now on to your post. I will try to respond to you points one at a time. 1. I called you the wrong name. See above. 2. You want to discuss specific scripture verses to prove that Calvinism is correct. I’m not interested. You have already done that with other people on this forum, and I don’t seek redundancy. The purpose of this thread is solely to discuss whether it is possible for a person with an Arminian perspective to believe in a sovereign God. 3. You say that “It is not possible for God to be sovereign in the Arminian perspective” (but you don’t say why). Then you say that “Arminianism sees man as partly sovereign”. However, John Reformed pointed out previously and I agree that there is no such thing as “partly” sovereign. One either is supremely powerful or not. 4. You say that the child would never pick something in the store that belongs to God (and quote more scriptures supporting Calvinism). Once again this is irrelevant to the question of this thread; see above. ..................................... 5 and 6. Here you say that God would be less in control if He chooses to dictate some things that happen in the history of the universe than if He chose to dictate every single thing that has ever happened or ever will happen. Please explain why you think that. You quote a verse from Daniel that says that noone on Earth could “stay His (God’s) hand”. I interpret this to mean that noone can stop God from doing anything He chooses to do. That doesn’t tell us anything about whether God is less powerful if He chooses NOT to do something. In my thinking, a being is NOT any less powerful just because it chooses not to do something that it is capable of. ..................................... In summary, I am interested in your thoughts on points 5 and 6, but don’t particularly desire any further discussion on points 1, 2, 3, and 4. You may of course respond to them anyway, you have both the FREEDOM and the ABILITY :) |
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193 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61525 | ||
The Dollar Store ........................................ Dear John, That last post of yours covered a lot of topics, but I will try to weed through to only the ones that actually deal specifiically with the sovereignity of God WITHIN the Arminian perspective. ........................................ Therefore your comment about the razor blades is not germane. This is a question of whether God would be loving to let the child choose the bad slide. We’re not talking about whether God is loving. Your comment about the child not being able to slide down either slide or even knowing what a slide is, is also not germane. That is not an idea held WITHIN the Arminian perspective. Nor is the idea of Total Depravity which is therefore also not germane. Please remember that we are only talking about whether it is possible for God to be soverign in the Arminian perspective, thus it is not helpful to try to convince me to believe in the Calvinist perspective. ........................................ Finally at the end of your post you mention that God would not be sovereign if anything “would not be under His immediate and direct control and thus everything from that point would change everything else.” I can understand why you might think that, but let’s look at it a little closer. It is possible for a being to allow limited freedom within a system while still being in control. For instance, in our town their is a store where everything costs 1 dollar. Now a parent could go to that store and lay a dollar bill on the counter and then tell their kid to go pick out any on thing in the store and the money on the counter will pay for it. The kid then actually does have freedom to choose whatever they want, but the parent’s “prophecy” will still come true when they bring it up to be paid for and the dollar bill is already there. This is an example of a time when a subject can be given both the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to make a choice while at the same time some future things will not change. ........................................ Since God is all powerful, couldn’t He do the same thing? Couldn’t He create a universe where humans have the FREEDOM and ABILITY to choose whether to love God or not, yet at the same time be able to determine several critical points along the way (including the end of time)? And if God had the ability to, at any point, take back over and dictate everything, then wouldn’t He still be completely in control? Just because God chooses not to excersize His abilitiy to dictate everything, does that make Him cease to be supremely powerful? |
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194 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61498 | ||
A Different View ......................................... There has been a lot of venting since I posted last regarding the futility and devisiveness of C and A debates on this forum. I agree that these debates can be futile and divisive if the people are just covering the same ground repeatedly (quoting the same verses that each side always quotes, for instance). However, I believe that John Reformed and I are actually covering new ground here. I don’t think that there has been another thread that significantly covers whether it is possible for God to be sovereign from an Arminian perspective. I also think that this is one area where it is actually possible to reach consensus. Maybe I’ll be proved wrong, but I’d like to at least give it a try. I have enjoyed the discussion so far, and am up for it if you are John Reformed. You gave 3 reasons why God can’t be sovereign from the Arminian perspective. Let’s look at your points in reverse order. ......................................... You said that Scripture speaks throughout of predestination and fore ordination. I fail to see the relevance. I’ll grant that from your perspective those verses say that God excersizes complete control over the salvation of each individual. However, that doesn’t say anything about whether God would still be in control if He chose not to excersize that control at all times. ......................................... You also said that “If even one atom of matter is free from God's absolute control then chaos could result.” I believe that in one since you are correct. If the universe were completely free from God’s control, you would end up with chaos. Coincidentally (?) in science we learn that is exactly what is happening. It is called entropy, and it is the realization that all things are naturally going from a state of order to a state of disorder (just look at a child’s bedroom). However, I would say that God sustains the universe (biblical idea here), and keeps it from falling apart until He is ready for that to happen. I would also say that it is possible to delegate a limited amount of freedom to subjects without creating utter chaos. ......................................... Finally, you also said, “God is sovereign in a way that no mere creature can be described as sovereign.” I agree that God is sovereign beyond any mere creature, but how does that change anything. In fact, if a mere parent can allow their child to pick which slide to go down in the park without it diminishing the parent’s strenth and ability, then wouldn’t it be logical that God (who has infinately more power) could allow a human to choose whether to love Him or not without it diminishing God’s power or control? |
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195 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61497 | ||
Personal Note ..................................... Dear Hank, I understand your frustration, and to some extent share it. That is one reason why I left this forum for a long time. However, I have not completely given up hope. I therefore have resolved to only respond to posts that I actually see potential for progress to be made, and so far this appears to be one. Keep lookin' for those cows :) |
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196 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61495 | ||
A Different View ......................................... There has been a lot of venting since I posted last regarding the futility and devisiveness of C and A debates on this forum. I agree that these debates can be futile and divisive if the people are just covering the same ground repeatedly (quoting the same verses that each side always quotes, for instance). However, I believe that John Reformed and I are actually covering new ground here. I don’t think that there has been another thread that significantly covers whether it is possible for God to be sovereign from an Arminian perspective. I also think that this is one area where it is actually possible to reach consensus. Maybe I’ll be proved wrong, but I’d like to at least give it a try. I have enjoyed the discussion so far, and am up for it if you are John Reformed. You gave 3 reasons why God can’t be sovereign from the Arminian perspective. Let’s look at your points in reverse order. ......................................... You said that Scripture speaks throughout of predestination and fore ordination. I fail to see the relevance. I’ll grant that from your perspective those verses say that God excersizes complete control over the salvation of each individual. However, that doesn’t say anything about whether God would still be in control if He chose not to excersize that control at all times. ......................................... You also said that “If even one atom of matter is free from God's absolute control then chaos could result.” I believe that in one since you are correct. If the universe were completely free from God’s control, you would end up with chaos. Coincidentally (?) in science we learn that is exactly what is happening. It is called entropy, and it is the realization that all things are naturally going from a state of order to a state of disorder (just look at a child’s bedroom). However, I would say that God sustains the universe (biblical idea here), and keeps it from falling apart until He is ready for that to happen. I would also say that it is possible to delegate a limited amount of freedom to subjects without creating utter chaos. ......................................... Finally, you also said, “God is sovereign in a way that no mere creature can be described as sovereign.” I agree that God is sovereign beyond any mere creature, but how does that change anything. In fact, if a mere parent can allow their child to pick which slide to go down in the park without it diminishing the parent’s strenth and ability, then wouldn’t it be logical that God (who has infinately more power) could allow a human to choose whether to love Him or not without it diminishing God’s power or control? |
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197 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 61350 | ||
Actually, I think we do agree ..................................... Dear John, I agree that consensus is a sweet thing, and is extremely rare in these discussions of Calvinism and Arminianism. Therefore, I saw this specific topic as one area where it could be reached, and decided to try to work towards it. Thankfully, you have been able to understand where I was coming from and work from the opposite direction to get to the what seems like same place. ..................................... You said that you do not agree with my conclusion, but I fail to see where the disagreement lies. We seem to both agree that IF Arminian perspective is correct then God would still be sovereign. That is my only conclusion that I am discussing at this point. So it seems like you do agree with my conclusion. I understand that you disagree with the assumption. You do not agree that Arminian perspective is correct, but that is not the conclusion, that is the premise. And you do agree that a person who did have an Arminian perspective would still be believing in a sovereign God. Do I understand what you are saying correctly? ..................................... You also asked how this all gets us closer to the truth. I believe that most Calvinists have a misperception that Arminians do not and cannot believe in a sovereign God. Similarly, most Arminians have some misperceptions about Calvinists. Therefore, I believe that it is important for each side to gain a more accurate understanding of the other sides belief. By being able to clearly see both sides, I think that we are all much more likely to come to the real truth. ..................................... P.S. You also mentioned that you wanted people to answer your question on 1 Cor 2:14. I tried that once and you said I needed to respond to another of your former posts. I requested that you let me know which one, and never heard back from you. I assume my request just got lost in the shuffle as you’ve been so busy answering so many posts lately. It’s no problem, but if you really want me to respond to it just let me know where to find it. |
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198 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Sir Pent | 61276 | ||
We’re making progress ..................................... Dear John, Thank you again for your response. I think that we may be very close to agreement after all. You agree with me that no matter how God created the universe, He does not change so He would be just as powerful. You also agree with me that a person’s control does not cease to exist when they choose not to use it. Therefore, I am led to conclude that IF the Arminian perspective was correct (that God created the universe in a way that allowed people to rebel, by not using His ability to control everything completely), that He would still be sovereign. ..................................... It does appear that you believe this would not make sense. After all a king who is all powerful would not allow his subjects to rebel so why would God? This is a perfectly valid question, and one that those who hold to Arminian perspective must deal with. However, as you have said earlier in another post, if something is in scripture, then it must be believed whether it makes sense or not. And since Arminians believe that their perspective is supported in scripture, I assume that you would understand where they are coming from. ..................................... So it seems like we are in agreement that whether a person agrees with Calvin or Arminius, there are some things that don’t make sense, but it is possible to interpret scripture in a way that supports the belief, and that both systems can be consistent with a SOVEREIGN God. I’m sure you’ll let me know if you disagree with any of this, but it seems to me that perhaps we have reached a consensus point across this great theological divide :) |
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199 | Sovereignty and Free-Will | John | Sir Pent | 61272 | ||
Perhaps we're at an impass.............................. Dear JRdoc, I am dissapointed that you feel like we can’t continue our discussion. I am not asking you to stop using scripture, in fact, I encourage you to do so. I am only asking that you don’t use scripture to attack the assumption (Arminian perspective) because that has been done already elsewhere on the forum (and is currently happening as well, I might add). I would ask you to supply some scripture that would indicates that BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION BEING TRUE, would negate the sovereignity of God. If you are unable to put yourself in the other persons shoes, then this may be impossible for you. However, I have tried to state the Calvinist position from their perspective in a fair way, and would ask you to at least try to answer the question from a point of understanding (although not agreeing of course) the Arminian perspective. If you can’t do this then I would encourage you to at least read the thread that I am discussing this with John Reformer. We seem to be understanding each other better and perhaps you might learn something from reading that thread. ............................................................ P.S. I am not a universalist. I disagree with that perspective. |
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200 | Reincarnation, Who will be saved ? | Matt 10:16 | Sir Pent | 61265 | ||
Support (mostly) ............................................. Dear MYR, I would agree with almost everything that Steve said. The only thing that I would clarify would be than I am not convinced that every aboriginies, primitive tribes, etc. will die in their sins. Steve is correct that those who reject God will, but I believe that it is possible to learn about God even through the nature that is around us. Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Rom 1:20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; |
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