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Results from: Notes Author: let it rain Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Rom 7:9 What's it mean? | Bible general Archive 1 | let it rain | 51922 | ||
Hi Hank, When he knocks on the door, I don't think Jesus cares if one turns the knob and opens the door believing opening the door is faith or works. But if the door isn't opened, faith was never present. There are many churches, a methodist one comes to mind, that won't even have baptismals installed in their buildings, and they will not bring the subject up. In fact, in a bible class I went to, a question in their printed material asked this regarding acts 2:38: "Why do you suppose Peter told the crowd to repent and believe in order to be saved?" Of course, you and I know that's NOT what Peter told the crowd. This was a Navigator series study. Another correspondent on this subject believes that even death is a work. Do you agree? Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. We are empowered by the Spirit to DO good works, baptizing others fits that description. I see no work in being baptized and being united with Christ in his death. Death is not a work, though we do participate in it, don't we? If we have hands laid on us and are healed, the elders praying may be engaged in a work, but the person being healed is not, though he is a participant. I think Martin Luther and his fellow medieval protestors were so obsessed with the "popish" church that their considerable (though violent)intellects spent too much energy refuting roman teachings. I haven't seen it in print, but I'm told that Luther called the Book of James "the book of straw" because of it's emphasis on works. When you see "works" the way he and other reformers did, it's easy to see why he didn't like it. Love ya man! |
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2 | Rom 7:9 What's it mean? | Bible general Archive 1 | let it rain | 51834 | ||
alive apart from the Law As I understand the "Doctrine" of original sin, we are conceived in sin. Not that a conceptus has done anything wrong, but is bathed in spiritual depravity. I can make any verse make sense if I'm given enough time. I've seen the verses used to build the original sin doctrine. I think they can all be explained a different way. This verse (Rom 7:9)is the one that convinces me that they OUGHT to be interpreted differently. "sin only makes sense in the context of God's commandments." (Joe) Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Rom 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus "I was once alive apart from the Law" can only mean that whether or not the law existed elsewhere, it was not alive in Paul. Could he have been a sinner in need of a savior if he was "alive?" You are not under the law now, but salvation is a past event in your life. Are you not also then, "alive apart from the law?" Can't it be said that one who is "alive to God in Christ Jesus," is also "alive apart from the Law?" A timeline might look like this: ...(a)....(b)....(c)....(d)... where: (a) is physical birth (b) is where the law came in (c) is salvation (d) is physical death it seems to me that for however long (a) lasts, we are not condmned until (b) happens. (b) is where the unsaved or doomed spend their earthly lives and includes phrases such as "dead to the spirit" and "alive to sin" and "enslaved to sin." (c) may have a variety of understandings in differing ages or interpretations, but is mostly marked by accepting the reality of sin in our lives and the need for the risen christ. (d) is our entrance to eternal bliss or eternal hell. I think (a) is what Paul was talking about. He was not saved, but only because he hadn't had the time to get lost yet! Original sin IS a well developed doctrine, but not in scripture. |
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3 | Rom 7:9 What's it mean? | Bible general Archive 1 | let it rain | 51831 | ||
Hank, No towel snapping allowed! I'm only one of a couple of folks on these boards that think being united with Christ's death in baptism so that I might walk in newness of life has any meaning -- therefore I must be right!! The narrow road is lonely, but that's (shrug) the cross I bear ((heavy sigh)) J/K!! |
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4 | Rom 7:9 What's it mean? | Bible general Archive 1 | let it rain | 51563 | ||
Welcome vikki4god! Wow your first post. Thanks for responding. If you've been flipping thru, you've seen that the overall topic is of a right understanding of baptism. Then a thread began concerning infant baptism. I see baptism as a part of the salvation process (necessary), others see baptism as a work, a response to salvation, and positions such as mine are hopelessly un-faith-only and un-grace-only. I'm pretty new around here too, but the water is warm and the fellow swimmers seem friendly, so jump on in! Let it rain |
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5 | Holy Spirit evidence of Salvation? | Acts 2:38 | let it rain | 51502 | ||
Hello Tim, I think you are confusing the one....what happened to Peter -- with the other....what Peter was given to teach the rest of us. That is probably why you confuse the special miracles (Pentecost and House of Cornelius) with the common (Acts 2:38) Though all salvation is miraculous, it's also quite obvious that the winds and tongues of fire don't happen every time someone is saved. They received the holy spirit without repentance or baptism, ("first for the jews") then revealed God's plan to all in their presence. Presumably, these were all Jews. Then they were led to the Gentiles, who received the Holy Spirit by the same special miracle as did the jews. ("then for the Gentiles") I can see baptism in both of these occasions, but I have to read repentance into the text. In his love! Rob |
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6 | Where's the repentance? | Acts 2:38 | let it rain | 51482 | ||
I don't see any evidence of repentance in these verses. Or, in fact, in the entire New Testament. Except, as you say, many receive the Holy Spirit. That is sure evidence that repentance was there somewhere. But it is odd, don't you think, that there is no direct example of repentance, but so many claim it's ALL that is necessary (your "confession" is noted -- an obvious 'work') but with so many thousands of examples of water baptisms given in scripture the same people say it's all meaningless for salvation. I'm told Peter's grammar isn't perfect (for 'pete's' sake) so baptism clearly isn't called for. May I remind you of this: "Acts 4:13 Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus" No one needs perfect grammar to understand "repent and be baptized, every one of you" doesn't mean repent and if you feel like it get wet... I just don't get it. I know there's nothing about getting wet that saves anyone. But i would sure hate to face God and try to explain to him why i took repentance seriously when witnessing, but left it up to denominations when it comes to baptism. Paul says it's necessary that there should be some division, to show who has God's approval. That tells me that some will be correct and some not. I accept that I could be wrong, and baptism is the outward expression of something that's already happened inside. ,But if we cannot be united with Christ in his death without baptism (Rom 6) then why do you tell people they need not be baptized? I understand your point of view. I am familiar with the topic being discussed. I merely think you are incorrect. In his love and grace, Rob |
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7 | Was it complete? | Bible general Archive 1 | let it rain | 51192 | ||
Hello brother Tim, Personally, I just can't get around Romans 6, especially when it’s filtered through other selected verses. “Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (what of those who haven't been immersed into his death?) Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, …” “buried with him into death…” as you said in one of your notes, “I really don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp!” Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.” Paul had not yet passed through physical death when these words were written. Is the crucifixion of which he speaks merely in his mind? Is Paul’s crucifixion a matter of mere belief? There is an immense and awesome change at work in these verses. It’s kinda’ like one saying, “I used to be Tim, but now Napoleon has taken over my life.” Like much of the New Testament, it’s either right on the money or it’s insanity (ya gotta love Festus!). I think Paul is teaching that he was crucified with Christ at Paul’s baptism. He was immersed into Christ’s death, his faith made it real and his faith was made real with action. (James 2:19 “Even the demons believe…”) After his baptism, but before his death, Christ answered James’ and John’s presumptuous request this way, "‘You don't know what you are asking,’" Jesus said. "’Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?’" (Mk 10:38) Jesus was not talking about his immersion at the Jordan in John’s hands. The thorns and nails were not a matter of getting wet or of mere belief. I think He was talking about His suffering and death, the very same death Paul speaks of in Romans and Galatians. Was Christ’s death on the cross a ‘work’ as so many like to call baptism? Is death a work? Paul says he “was crucified with Christ!” Was Paul doing a ‘work’ when he was united with Christ in his death? “I really don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp!” |
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