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Results from: Notes Author: dhthinker Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is baptism a work? | NT general Archive 1 | dhthinker | 66468 | ||
Greetings Tim: Couple of points - and then off to church. First, I do and will continue to assume that when the Bible is talking about Christians it is talking about those who: 1) have accepted Jesus as their savior; 2) have repented of their sins; and 3) have been baptized. This is what the Gosples - and the book of Acts - tell me is required. I don't have a definitive answer for you on Acts 10 except to note the following. First, there is nothing to keep the Holy Spirit from working in both Christians and nonChristians. It seems clear from this passage that the Holy Spirit did come on to these folks - so I will grant you that. However, in the very next scripture Peter says what is to keep them from being baptized? Clearly baptism is significant here and will allow them to have their sins "washed away" by entering into the death and resurrection of Jesus. So the question now comes up, does the Holy Spirit dwell in those who believe in Christ but have not been baptized to have their sins forgiven? Worth some dialogue... So, to summarize, the Holy Spirit might enjoin you prior to baptism, but how are your sins forgiven? Again, good dialogue and I wish you well in your studies. I can only pray that good hearts like yours are in the same line as I hope to be. Have a great Lord's Day. Your Brother in Christ, Don Turner |
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2 | Is baptism a work? | NT general Archive 1 | dhthinker | 66421 | ||
Tim: 1. Gal 3:5 - again, God giving us the Spirit doesn't tell how He does it - simply implies that He does. 2. By definition, any of the Epistles were written to those already Christians - what did Peter say in Acts 2:38 Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."" This is the FIRST directive given by an Apostle under the New Covenant on the Day of Pentacost (Jesus had JUST left them and gave them the Great Commission Mt 28:19) and it is pretty clear - at least to me. 3. Therefore, when I read ANY of the Epistles that were written to Christians I assume that they had already: 1. Declared Jesus Lord of their Life; 2. Repented of their sins; and 3. were baptized so they could receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. By definition, read the opening remarks of all the Epistles. They are written to existing Christian churches or existing ministers of Christ - therefore the scripture has to be taken in context of that. The Gospels were written to those wanting to become Christians and even Jesus said you must be "born again" of the water and the spirit. So you read the Gospels to learn how to become a Christian and you read the Epistles to learn how to live as a Christian - that is my take on it. Finally, to your last point is doesn't say they were not baptized. I could tell you that I went to Buffalo and not tell you that I happen to go in a car, but I did. I just happened to leave that fact out. Reading exclusions from scripture has been shown wrong by various concurrent testimonies regarding the Resurrection in the Gospel - all read a little different and are simply different perspectives of the same event. Tim, again the scary part of this is that scripture says there is "one baptism" - we all need to figure it out for ourselves. However, given that the road to destruction is wide and the path to heaven is narrow - by definition, a lot of truly sincere people will be wrong. All I know is that my reading of the Bible - the Great Commission, Peter on Pentacost, etc. - all point out to the significance of baptism. Clearly, this is against what has been preached since the evangelical "road shows" in the mid 20th centurey where alter calls were the "main event." Note, that was an invention of the 20th century Bible road shows - nothing in scripture about "praying Jesus into your heart." Tim, the key assumption that we are both challenging is "who" is the scripture talking to and then what is the context. My fundamental premise is that all Epistles are written to already existing Christians - struggling at times maybe - but Christians nonetheless. If one believes this then one must look deeper to determine how they became Christians in the first place. Between the already mentioned Great Commission (Mt 28:19), Peter's response to "what do we do?", and Paul's insistence on having the various folks he converted baptized tells me that baptism is significant. It is NOT an "after thought" of becoming a Christian - because then, again by definition it becomes an "act" and we both know you are saved by grace, not by deeds. Good dialogue - I have spent a lot of time on this subject. Especially growing up Roman Catholic and then leaving the church because of the wrongs that I personally saw in the church, has caused me to really understand the significance of baptism. Note, and as you know, the Catholic practice of infant baptism has absolutely no Biblical foundation. Tim,what you believe is what the majority of "Christians" believe - I know I am in the minority. Nonetheless, I truly believe I received the gift of the Holy Spirit when I was baptized on 16 apr 00 and that my sins were washed away. All the best to you in your journey. A Disciple of Christ. Don |
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3 | Is baptism a work? | NT general Archive 1 | dhthinker | 66410 | ||
Tim: Thank you for your prompt response to my note. You bring up some excellent points and I respect your sincerity in expressing them. First and foremost, let me emphasize that I believe we should all be constantly dialoging about these issues with the intent of formulating our own doctrine. We will stand by our self on Judgement Day – our Pastor, our Priest, our theological professor, our best friend will not be there next to us. We are on our own and thus must read the Bible intensely to ensure that our doctrine is sound. We are in perilous time… 2 Tim 4 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. Now, to your comments and again thank you for your most sincere and open-minded response to my note. Without restating items like “The Great Commission” and John 3:5 – often times we need put scripture in context. One of the major facts that most Christians don’t realize is that except for the Gospels and Revelations – every other book of the New Testament was written to ALREADY EXISTING CHRISTIANS. From my study of the Bible, these already existing Christians had already been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – and therefore any scripture focused at their beliefs and faith were based on this already happening. Consequently, when quoting anything out of the Epistles it is important to note who the book was being written to. A great book to read is "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up" which is a study of how the 1st and 2nd century Christians lived - and what they believed. Specific to the scripture you quoted, here are my quick responses... Gal 2:5 – sorry, simply don’t see how this relates to the subject at hand. The question is how the Spirit got in them in the first place (see note above). 1 Jn 3:24 – good point, but these Christians were already baptized. Eph 1:13 – Tim, same point as above, we must all study out how these already existing Christians who Paul is writing to became Christians in the first place. This is a major issue between those who believe in the importance of water baptism versus those who believe you can answer an “alter call” and pray Jesus into your heart. You clearly understand the importance of this issue from your note. Again, it is important to read all scripture in context. Let me offer you several other points. First, other key scripture that should be studied in context includes: Acts 2:38 "Peter said to them, Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." Acts 10:48 "With that he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." Romans 6:4 "Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life." Second, upon the day of Pentecost, it was Peter in Acts 2:38 that set the tone for answering the question, “what should we do?” Third, in Eph 4:5, Paul says “There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Consequently – and this is what all of us should be clearly aware of - IF THERE IS ONLY ONE BAPTISM AND MANY MANY VIEWS OF WHAT THAT BAPTISM IS - A LOT OF FOLKS ARE GOING TO BE WRONG! This should really prompt all of us to study this out! …and as the good book says, Acts 22:16 "And now why are you delaying? Rise and get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name." NOTE, like I said, when you "pray Jesus into your heart" when are you forgiven? At the end of the prayer? At the last breath? At the start of the prayer when your heart is now convicted? Seems somewhat nebulous and I don't think my Lord would leave things open to such interpretation. Baptism is part and parcel with the acceptance of the Holy Spirit, the Counselor, that Jesus promised us would reside in us, work through our heart and others, and is a phenomenal gift that we receive when we are baptized. Bottom line, Baptism is a subject everyone must make their mind up - I didn't write the Book and I'm not an expert - but I know what I have read and I know what I believe. Tim, thank you for note – we are all praying, reading, studying, self-reflecting on these subjects that are of upmost importance. I don’t know if my response has helped you, but I thank you for your time and your heart and pray that you do well - and do right - in your study of scripture. A Disciple of Christ, Don |
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4 | Is baptism a work? | NT general Archive 1 | dhthinker | 66395 | ||
Charis: Great answer! I too believe that the Holy Spirit enters you upon Baptism. The contrast is those that say Baptism is an "optional" item. If it is optional, when does the Holy Spirit enter you? Is at the very last syllable of the "Praying Jesus into your heart"? (of which I don't beieve) The last breath? I simply don't believe my Lord would be so nebulous on such an important topic. Paul had everyone he converted baptized - the jailer and his family were baptized in the middle of the night. Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jn 3:5 Kind of says it all. Furthermore, from MY(emphasis on "my", we each need to study the Bible ourselves and not take other people's opinions of it as absolute truth) personal study of the Bible I believe three things are required for salvation: 1) Declare Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior; 2) Repent of your sins; and 3) be baptized in His name. The last words of Jesus before ascending to Earth were clear, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," Mt 28:19. For those wanting to know the tenets of Christianity 101 - my Lord made it very simple, very clear on what my duty is as a follower, as a disciple. Yours in Christ, Don |
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