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Results from: Notes Author: danieln Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | further details? | 2 Cor 5:8 | danieln | 58311 | ||
its just that this thought occured to me.. 1) those who sin die Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 2) Jesus died for our sins and now we have the hope of the resurrection 1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 3) your definition of death is just death of the body(with the eternal soul going to heaven) if we take Jesus out of the equation, then we still have eternal souls going to heaven.. therefore we dont need Jesus this is a disturbing thought. the core of this doctrine seems to lessen our reliance on Jesus besides the scriptures you mentioned 1 Cor 15:12-58 seems to pin all our hope on the resurrection, it says if the dead wont be resurrected then they are perished. 1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. also 1 The 4:13-18 has the 2nd Advent and the resurrection as our hope |
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2 | Info on Antichrist and the Rapture | 1 Thessalonians | danieln | 58241 | ||
this rapture isnt all that secret | ||||||
3 | Simple example that we shoud keep sabbat | Ps 111:7 | danieln | 58081 | ||
I agree with you, i believe it is ok for people who are doing an essential service(doctors etc) to work on the Sabbath | ||||||
4 | Where was Lazarus for 4 days? | John 11:11 | danieln | 58056 | ||
"1 Sam 28:3-19 NOTE: Samuel spoke with Saul after Samuel had died." If when we are dead we still reside as a spirit in paradise then: a) why would God expressly forbid our loved ones trying to contact us? b) why would we permit ourselfs to be summoned and help people commit this sin? Spirits of the dead and the afterlife etc. are prominent in basically all pagan religions, God to trying to keep us away from having anything to do with these familiar spirits(fallen angels). Notice this verse: 1Ch 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; it says he asked counsel of a familiar spirit, he thought it was the shade of Samuel i guess Also if elijah and moses were dead spirits then Jesus commited this sin by contacting them. "Luke 16:19-16 NOTE:..." I dont believe that this "did happen", many stories are narrated this way(Once upon a time "there was" an old man...) and Jesus narrates this way in alot of other parables. Also if we are going to take this story as a literal account then we start getting into problems. a) the dead are carried by angels into Abrahams bosom(breast). b) the righteous and wicked dead can see and talk to each other(imagine seeing your family burning for eternity, i dont call that paradise and how will God wipe "away all tears" Rev 21:4) c) the notion of dipping ones finger into water to cool anothers tongue to ease their torment is also obviously an absurd idea. "Matt 27:52 Matt 27:53" These people are resurrected also, lucky for them :), (not so lucky if they were enjoying paradise beforehand though) as for the last point, i think thats kinda playing around with semantics 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. |
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5 | Simple example that we shoud keep sabbat | Ps 111:7 | danieln | 58051 | ||
I dont think anyone is saying its a sin to worship Jesus(on the first day or any other). But i guess it is a sin not to keep the Sabbath rest holy(do no work, nor make others do work etc..). Notice that Jesus was "resting" in the grave on the Sabbath. |
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6 | Where was Lazarus for 4 days? | John 11:11 | danieln | 57995 | ||
1) "Definitely not a enough data to be definitive, but two out of three are conclusive - so...!" well i guess it is subjective whether 2 out of 3 is conclusive that the words are never used a different way. Also the other two cases are not even spoken by Jesus so we hardly have a conclusive list of the way he uses the words. 2) i see, your saying that Jesus often used amen amen(or verily verily) to emphasise a point. 3) sometime it is sometimes it isnt. often in history though its been a small minority with the truth though. 4) The "Amen" may well have been sufficient to stress what Jesus said, but that surely is subjective. Considering the situation that Jesus and the thief were in(immense pain, tiredness and fear) who can say what Jesus would have felt was sufficient. I attend the Seventh Day Adventist church as my beliefs most closely coincide with theirs. do you have a response to the other points i made? |
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7 | Where was Lazarus for 4 days? | John 11:11 | danieln | 57951 | ||
Hi cyclist the story of the transfiguration is an awesome one! yes Moses and Elijah do exist. of course Elijah was taken to heaven by the firey chariot therefore he never died. and plenty of people believe that Moses was resurrected and taken to heaven after his death. Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. so this transfiguration on the mountain is a demonstration of what will happen at the second advent. Jesus is radiantly white(like him comming in glory), Moses is an example of the resurrected believers and Elijah is an example of those who are alive at his comming and are tranformed in "the blink of an eye" yes Lazarus is plainly dead, but in John 11:11 Jesus describes this as sleep(as in he is unconsious) |
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8 | Where was Lazarus for 4 days? | John 11:11 | danieln | 57942 | ||
1) so if lego and sermeron are on close proximity only three times, then we can hardly make a generalisation of how they are used.\ 2) sorry i dont exactly understand this point 3) most major translators believe that we are concious after death, also as i said this text is easily swayed by ones preconcieved ideas 4) "I say today.." emphasises what he is about to say. similar maybe to "im telling you now!...". consider the situation the thief is in, he definately needed reassurance at that time. and now some points i would like to add: 1. Remember there are 65 clear texts where scripture refers to death as resting in sleep. How can we use one or two obscure references to build a doctrine. 2. Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." this may on the surface seem to be a indication that Jesus and the thief would go straight to heaven when they died. But notice this next text when Jesus had been resurrected from death on sunday he said to mary "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (John 20:17) 3. There are a few other places in the Bible where the translators have obviously misplaced a comma, such is the case in Acts 19:12 in the KJV. compare it with the NIV version |
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9 | Where was Lazarus for 4 days? | John 11:11 | danieln | 57822 | ||
the original greek text does not have any punctuation, the comma was put in there by the translators. therefore it could either be "Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise." or "Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise." so this text (Luke 23:43) is inconclusive, and is easily swayed by ones preconcieved ideas(also one text on its own is always inconclusive anyhow, we should look for the teaching of the bible as a whole). it is relevant to note that Jesus seems to often not bother about the details of how and when but he emphasises the certainty of an event. |
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10 | Where was Lazarus for 4 days? | John 11:11 | danieln | 57684 | ||
Sure Ray, that sounds fair enough. I shall endeavor to be less sloppy when writing about such things. daniel |
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11 | Where was Lazarus for 4 days? | John 11:11 | danieln | 57673 | ||
Personifications? One brief thought before we look at the verses: There are some verses that seem to use "soul" and "spirit" in ways that harmonize with the common concept of the nature of man. How can this be? Is the Bible contradicting itself? Here is one suggestion: It was commonplace for the Bible writers to take parts of man’s being and personify them, give them attributes they did not in actuality possess. Perhaps sometimes they personified the "soul" and "spirit" as well. The most familiar example of a part of a person being personified is the heart. The heart, simply an organ that pumps blood, is said to have qualities that the mind does have, but that the heart definitely does not have. Another example which is not so familiar is the personification of the kidneys, called the "reins" (Ps. 7:9; 16:7; 26:2; 73:21; Prov. 23:16; Jer. 11:20; 12:2; 17:10; 20:12; Rev. 2:23). The kidneys seem to have been made the seat of the affections and emotions. Another example is the use of the words for "bowels" (Ps. 40:8 (translated "heart"); Cant. 5:4; Is. 16:11; 63:15; Jer. 4:19; 31:20; Lam. 1:20; 2:11; Luke 1:78 (translated "tender"); 2 Cor 7:15 (translated "inward affection"); Php. 2:1; Col. 3:12; Phm. 1:7, 20; 1 Jn. 3:17). In the light of these scriptures, the possibility that the Bible writers also occasionally personify the "soul" and "spirit" should be considered. In other words, the "soul" and the "spirit" may in some verses be given qualities that they do not in actuality possess. "There was no more spirit (ruach) in her" (2 Chr. 9:4). [Her "spirit" totally left, yet she was still alive.] "The Spirit (neshamah, pnoe) of God hath made me, and the breath (ruach, pneuma) of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job 33:4). [God's "spirit" gives us life.] "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath (ruach, pneuma) goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" (Ps. 146:3, 4). [When the "spirit" leaves, the person can no longer think.] "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (ruach, pneuma) shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). [The "spirits" of all, both good and bad, go back to God.] "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (ruach, pneuma); so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit (ruach, pneuma) of man that goeth upward, and the spirit (ruach, pneuma) of the beast that goeth downward to the earth" (Eccl. 3:19-21). [There is no difference between the "spirit" of animals and the "spirit" of people.] If our spirit indeed has a mind, when it is apart from the body then where are our memorys from before it was inserted into our body Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. |
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12 | Where was Lazarus for 4 days? | John 11:11 | danieln | 57663 | ||
no problem, though i wonder if our conflicting answers would confuse you more than anything lol | ||||||
13 | Where was Lazarus for 4 days? | John 11:11 | danieln | 57662 | ||
"The term "sleep" is never applied to the soul or the spirit, but only the body. The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. The body "sleeps" and goes back to dust. The following verses refer to the state of the body's death as sleep: " thankyou you kalos, but i just fail to see how, those verse's specify that in describing the person as 'asleep' they are refering to the body only? i agree that mans soul and spirit are more than just breath, but i would submit that they are aspects of a human which are indivisible. The word for "soul" in the Old Testament is nephesh. Nephesh is translated many different ways in the Old Testament: any 3 appetite 2 beast 2 body 4 breath 1 creature 9 dead 5 dead body 4 desire 4 fish 1 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh, psuche)" (Gen. 2:7). [He became a "soul" rather than received a "soul."] "Whatsoever Adam called every living creature (nephesh, psuche), that was the name thereof" (Gen. 2:19). [Animals are "souls."] "Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul (nephesh, psuche) shall live because of thee" (Gen. 12:13). ["Souls" can die.] "And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons (nephesh), and take the goods to thyself" (Gen. 14:21). ["Soul" here refers to the entire person.] "Whatsoever soul (nephesh, psuche) it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul (nephesh, psuche) shall be cut off from his people" (Lev. 7:27). ["Souls" can eat and be cut off.] "And whatsoever soul (nephesh, psuche) it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul (nephesh, psuche) will I destroy from among his people" (Lev. 23:30). ["Souls" can work and be destroyed.] there are many more verses in the bible that use the word soul alot differently then how it traditionally in the church has been used, and i think that the biblical wholistic view of human nature is incompatible with the notion of the "immortal soul". Indeed is not God the source and sustainer of all and any life, how can anything live on when seperated from him. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. the idea that "we shall not surely die" originated from one being. Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: this lie worked so well that it has been used by the deciever over and over.. the idea of an afterlife, is apparent in just about every pagan system(reincarnation, greek underworld etc...) and sadly also in the mainstream church. at least thats what i believe may the holy spirit guide us into all truth Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. |
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14 | Where was Lazarus for 4 days? | John 11:11 | danieln | 57630 | ||
"Man is made up of three parts: Spirit, Soul and Body" i agree Philippians 1:21-24 Paul is simply expressing his desire to end his troubled existance and be with Christ, many christians over the centurys have had the same desire and not necessirly expected to be ushered into Christs presence at the moment of their deaths. Also the dead in Christ do not experience the interviening time between death and resurection. Pauls statement needs to be interpreted on the basis of his clear teachings of when the believers will be united with Christ. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. the "so" (houtos) refers to the way believers will be united with Christ, ie not by dying but by being ressurected or translated at his comming. if you have a concordance you will notice that houtos means "in this way", placed at the beginning of the sentence it emphasises that "in this way shall we ever be with the Lord." Revelation 6:9-11 you cant ignore that alot of revelation is apocalyptic symbols that are not photographs of actual realitys but "symbolic representations of almost unimaginable spiritual realities". Obviously there are no white, red, black and pale horses with warlike riders and Christ does not appear in heaven in the form a lamb with a bleeding knife wound(rev 5:6) the scene of the martrys squeezed at the base of an altar are to reassure those facing death and matrydom that they will ultimately be vindicated by God(do you really believe that matrys go to heaven where they sit underneath the altar and cry with a loud voice?) The symbolism comes from leviticus where the blood of sacrifices was poured at the bottom of the altar(Lev 4:7) "When the Soul Leaves the Body, the Body Sleeps The term "sleep" is never applied to the soul or the spirit, but only the body. The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. The body "sleeps" and goes back to dust." how do you know that it is talking specifically only about the body? ("Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.") this verse uses Lazarus's name ie the person as a whole. ask yourself, what is the difference between someone who is asleep and someone who is awake, the person asleep is unconsious and the person awake is consious, the body is still very much awake(heart pumping, breathing, cellular functions), it is the mind that is asleep when we say someone is asleep. for this reason i can only conclude that when the bible describes death as a sleep i must understand that that means unconsiousness (and the bible describes death as sleep many times "david slept with his fathers etc..) also (to return the origonal question) if Lazarus did experience anything while "dead", he certainly doesnt say much about it... you might expect something like "wow, i was in heaven....", in fact if he was in paradise then Jesus would not have been doing him any favors by ressurecting him back into our world. thanks for reading if you got this far :) daniel |
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15 | Where was Lazarus for 4 days? | John 11:11 | danieln | 57615 | ||
this is an interesting response, didnt the origional questioner ask for biblical references??? :) "It leaves the sinner facing no eternal consequences for his sin;" errr.. being eternally dead IS an eternal consequence Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. "Indeed, many people today think annihilation preferable to even this life. They live on only because they cannot shake the conviction that there is “hell to pay.”" it may be some peoples opinion that annihilation is not much of a punishment... but consider the way the execution of the punishment is described, ie burning in fire and brimstone(personally i would think that burning to death would be about the worst way to go). besides the world today is ignorant of what God has in store for us, i think the biggest punishment will be in missing out on communion with God etc especially as the whole universe will see and acknowledge that Jesus is worthy of glory honor and power. 1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. |
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16 | question to smoke pot or not | Gen 1:12 | danieln | 54757 | ||
that may be true but... glue is a useful product, i used some just yesterday to fix something, yet i would not want me or one of my friends to become a glue sniffer. what im trying to say is that i dont think that those things affect whether to smoke pot or not. |
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17 | question to smoke pot or not | Gen 1:12 | danieln | 54751 | ||
that verse is talking about before the fall. there are many posionous/harmful plants these days which i would not advocate eating/smoking (eg poison ivy) 1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? |
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18 | difference Christian and catholic | Acts 11:26 | danieln | 50973 | ||
Well i looked up the meanings of the two words and i guess you have a point Emmaus. Papal infallibility (R. C. Ch.), the dogma that the pope can not, when acting in his official character of supreme pontiff, err in defining a doctrine of Christian faith or rule of morals, to be held by the church. This was decreed by the Ecumenical Council at the Vatican, July 18, 1870. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. Still i would like to know the reason the pope is considered infallible, surely the bible is our infallible guide to the christain faith and morals |
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19 | difference Christian and catholic | Acts 11:26 | danieln | 50972 | ||
I agree that we can (and should) forgive each other. Mat 6:14 "If you forgive others the wrongs they have done to you, your Father in heaven will also forgive you. Mat 18:21-22 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, if my brother keeps on sinning against me, how many times do I have to forgive him? Seven times?" "No, not seven times," answered Jesus, "but seventy times seven, but i do not think we can presume to take the place of God and forgive sins for him. Mark 2:7 "How does he dare talk like this? This is blasphemy! God is the only one who can forgive sins!" in fact you will notice that the two things that are called blasphemous in the NT are forgiveness of sins and saying one is God on ths earth (John 10:33) |
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20 | difference Christian and catholic | Acts 11:26 | danieln | 50951 | ||
Hi Emmaus, i think you need to clarify which part of what Jesusman said you beleive is inaccurate. | ||||||
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