Results 1 - 14 of 14
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Results from: Notes Author: Sang_Phleg Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is this a sin to do | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113154 | ||
Have re-read......... I can see what happened. When you look at the order in which the responses appear on the screen -- it paints a very different picture than when you read the TIMES they were posted, and so see the TRUE order of the responses. So - we were missing - or at least I WAS MISSING the order of things and responding out of order as well. Do you understand what I mean? You've been here a LOT longer than me, so I'm sure you understand the dynamic of forum posting way more than I do. At any rate - I realize that you got some of the brunt of my responses to Jlp's original attack of me, and I am very sorry. I'm glad we have resolution now and that we can move off of this whole subject. Thank you for apologizing. I certainly forgive any offense, real or imagined - intended or not intended at all. I hope you will forgive me too. I still stand where I stood on this issue originally, but I understand you A LOT CLEARER now, and I have been reminded that I need to be much slower to speak. It was never my intent to come in and start trouble. Be blessed in all you do! -Sang_Phleg |
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2 | Is this a sin to do | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113108 | ||
Wow. Hot coals? I'm not sure. My intent was RESOLUTION -- a truce. Not making you the bad guy. I was not trying to say you were the bad guy at all. Wow. My Home Church leader has a great point when he says "email is a BAD medium for conflict resolution." You just can't hear the person's voice influctions or see their body language to discern their intent. - black lettering on a white screen is too cold. Ok... Let's try this - because I HATE UNRESOLVED CONFLICT! And because I really do agree with Pent's statement that we are essentially saying the same thing from different angles. I agree WHOLE HEARTEDLY with this statement you just made: Well it gets my hackles up when people ignore the obvious object lessons that are in the Bible by taking the stand, "well this particular problem is not mentioned in the Bible so I guees it isn't a problem to be conerned with." AMEN and AMEN! I couldn't agree more. if you thought that was what I was trying to accomplish... no wonder we are in this debate. That is NOT at ALL what I was trying to say or do. That was a complete misunderstanding. I am VERY aware that the Bible gives MANY lessons that do not need to be spelled out exactly. The Trinity would be the perfect example of that truth (although it is not a moral lesson - instead, it is a character truth about our God). I am familiar with the verses about sinning against your conscience.... and about committing sin because you did something NOT out of FAITH.... etc. etc. I am familiar with many moral edicts God's Word gives that fit issues today, but don't use the exact wording. I agree with you here! We simply disagree about whether or not the simple FACT that a person has a tatoo or a piercing MEANS they intended sin when they did it. -- Or when they are considering doing it. I believe sometimes the intent CAN be very wrong. No doubt. I just would not assume that all tatooed or pierced people were in that camp. And THAT'S what I thought YOU were trying to say. Maybe that's where I misunderstood YOU. Are we on the same wavelength at all now? |
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3 | Is this a sin to do | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113103 | ||
Apparently I did read a bit into what you said. I am sorry if I misunderstood you. Here is your exact quote: The fact your friend asked the question to me says the Holy Spirit was dealing with them over it and they were seeking your approval to override with the Holy Spirit was revealing. What set me off were the words: THE FACT THAT YOUR FRIEND ASKED THE QUESTION TO ME SAYS THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS DEALING WITH THEM OVER IT. and the words: THEY WERE SEEKING YOUR APPROVAL TO OVERRIDE THE HOLY SPIRIT. (basically the whole quote set me off *LOL*) I took that as a declaration by you that YOU BELIEVED the Holy Spirit HAD been telling my friend she should not get a tatoo. (a fact it would be impossible for you to know). And I was completely stunned that you'd use the fact that she simply asked the question as proof of this. I took your statement that she was seeking my APPROVAL to override the Holy Spirit's conviction to mean.... that you were saying I did in fact override the Holy Spirit with my advice. That was offensive to me because I know myself and my relationships and my reputation in the church, (Of course I realize that you do not, because you do not know me) and though I am sought out A LOT for answers to questions and for Biblical advice about decisions -- because of my reputation and because of my theological training -- no one would come to me expecting me to help them override the Holy Spirit if they knew me, which of course this friend of 25 year DOES (If anyone did, I pray they'd be disappointed). I have earned a reputation for being a person who seeks very earnestly to always be in the center of God's will, and my advice (while it could never be perfect because no human is perfect)has proven out to be accurate over many years. This is due to the Lord's faithfulness, and not my own merit. Anyway, I am sorry I allowed myself to become offended and defensive. You asked me to explain my comment about allowing Satan to run rampant, so I will. Let's please not argue about it though. I am simply giving you the clarification you asked for. If I assumed every time someone asked me a spiritual question - that the Holy Spirit must be convicting the asker, simply because they asked the question - HOW would we discern whether it was Satan accusing them or the Holy Spirit convicting them? I am talking here about DISPUTABLE matters, NOT SPELLED OUT IN THE BIBLE and NOT ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION. Do you understand what I mean? he could run around causing doubt in everyone's minds and I'd always answer their questions with: "Well, if you have to ask... then the Holy Spirit must be convicting you." That to me would be utter foolishness!!!! That would be working for Satan, not the Lord God. That is what I meant. You do of course realize how the enemy works, don't you? You do know he is the accuser. That he deals in doubt. Think about how many times during your walk when he has accused you and caused doubt in you about your identity in Christ... your freedoms in Christ... the security of your salvation. This is what I was referring to. I'm sure you understand this dynamic of God's enemy trying to mimic God in our thoughts and seeking to misrepresent Him by discouraging us with doubt and accusation disguised as conviction. Anyway.. As I said in my last post - I'm done with this thread. Sir Pent's comments are right. This is a useless debate taking up way too much space, and frankly - I'm feeling pretty foolish for daring to answer a question in this format in the first place. You guys obviously call this your forum home and you don't need any one else barging in. Take care |
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4 | Is this a sin to do | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113097 | ||
*sigh* ok ok ok I give up. We will not change each other's minds, nor can we seem to agree to disagree... and it really doesn't matter enough for the trouble it has caused. I allowed myself to get WAY too passionate about the subject, and for that I am sorry. I feel very strongly about the fact that some Christians spend their lives chasing people away from Christ with man-made rules and regulations that have no place in the church because they don't exist in Scripture. It gets my hackles up every time. I simply answered a question biblically (I believe - and no one has yet proven me wrong with Scripture) - and the next thing I knew, I was being attacked. I should have ignored it, but no, I had to defend. That never works. God is my defense. I haven't been in a Christian forum for a long time. Nowwwwwww I remember why. Whenever someone answers a question, it takes about 4.5 seconds for another Christian to start an argument, and the person who needed the answer in the first place walks away more confused. Sorry I allowed myself to get involved in that. May you all be blessed |
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5 | Is this a sin to do | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113048 | ||
EdB I would like to answer to this comment from you: The fact your friend asked the question to me says the Holy Spirit was dealing with them over it and they were seeking your approval to override with the Holy Spirit was revealing. How can you make that jump? I've had new Christians ask me tons of questions like that. "Can Christ REALLY forgive me for my past sins?" -- "Can I lose my salvation if I cuss?" --- "If I have doubts about some spiritual things after Ive accepted Christ, does that mean I'm not saved?" --- I've heard ALL KINDS of spiritual questions... doctrinal questions... questions about what is sin and what isn't. It is totally NORMAL for new Christians to ask questions about things like this. Especially since they hear so much untruth out there from other Christians. If I just (as you did) assumed every time that the mere asking of the question meant that the Holy Spirit was convicting them, then Satan could just run rampant through my church doing whatever he pleased! Because he happens to cause people to doubt their identity in Christ ALL THE TIME and causes them to fear condemnation for non-condemnable things. I sincerely hope you don't use this logic when people come to you with questions!! Also - How could I encourage her to override what the Holy Spirit was supposedly convicting her on when I PRAYED WITH HER about it and ENCOURAGED HER TO TALK TO HIM ABOUT IT ALONE too? Come on now. Play fair. We consulted the Holy Spirit TOGETHER. Would He not make Himself clear on the matter in response to our asking? Please. And then judge her for it? Nonsense. She asked me SIMPLY because she sincerely wanted to be IN GOD'S WILL on the matter. If she hadn't been willing to hear from Him - she never would have asked me at all. She would have just done what she wanted without consulting Him. Are you implying that you've never had a spiritual question about anything unless the Holy Spirit was convicting you that it was sin??? |
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6 | Is this a sin to do | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113032 | ||
Clarification: I would ask why they were getting it - and I would address the CORE ISSUE they were getting it IF THAT ISSUE was something that was contrary to Christ. To me... it wouldn't be the piercing that would be the issue. It would be the core reason for getting it. And remember.... we're talking about a CHRISTIAN getting a tatoo or piercing here. Also - it was you who said your wife now regretted having pierced ears, and she felt she would not have done that if she were a Christian -- was that you who said that or someone else? If it was you - that troubles me. WHY would she feel guilt about that??? I am genuinely curious, if you don't mind answering that (if you know her true feelings on this issue and could speak on her behalf). |
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7 | Is this a sin to do | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113030 | ||
I would HAVE to say I do not know. What else could I say? How could I make a blanket declaration that I could know why ANY and EVERY person at all would get a piercing or a tatoo? How could YOU make that declaration? You can ASSUME. You can ASK. But you cannot KNOW. So... my answer to your question is - I would ASK. And in fact, I have before. A friend of mine for 25 years who I brought to Christ about 6 years ago was going to go have a tattoo done, and she wanted to know if it was a sin. I asked her why she wanted to get it. She said she'd just always wanted one (it's like any other fashion thing. Some people like them, some don't.) I didn't think that was a very good reason, but hey - she asked me IF IT WAS A SIN - she didn't ask me if I liked tatoos. We went over what scripture had to say about it together - we prayed about it together - I told her what my personal opinion was. - It was the same opinion I originally gave to OldRuggedCross on this forum about piercing. We didn't see it spelled out in Scripture as a sin when we looked together - but I told her I thought it had the potential to affect her witness because of the stereotype that our culture puts upon it (not God). I told her I personally would not get one, because it wouldn't be worth the risk of my witness in my opinion. I also would not get one because I am a Mom, and I think it would embarass my kids. I took the path I would take again with ANY DISPUTABLE issue like this -- Gave her what God has to say about it -- Gave her my personal opinion -- and told her she should search in prayer for the answer GOD HIMSELF had for HER PERSONALLY on the subject. I'm not sure what you were looking for with the question. Why don't you just tell me? Are you trying to make the point that there are really bad reasons for getting a tatoo or a piercing? I would agree. There are bad reasons for doing almost ANYTHING in life. What point did you want to get at? I'm listening. |
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8 | do piercing | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113027 | ||
I would hope they would lose interest in those things too. But I would not reject them if they did not. I would leave it to the Holy Spirit to convict them on this issue, and trust that He would if He knew it was an issue at all. My main concern is to not have Christians rejecting people based on their outward appearance. - And that people do not lay down - on God's behalf - the declaration that these outward things declare that they are not a part of His kingdom. I believe that would be a false representation of who God is. A tragic bad stewardship of our job as His ambassadors. I think we agree on this, we're just coming from different angles. -Sang |
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9 | do piercing | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113025 | ||
EdB and Jlp - I am reading all opinions on the subject, and so I have seen EdB's very eloquent response to you. We can absolutely agree on the truth that Many Christians want to hang onto the world while trying to follow Christ at the same time. It cannot be done. Christ Himself said you cannot love the world and Him too. This is because the world system (Greek -"Kosmos") is run by Satan, not God. But I would add that many Christians have wrongly interpreted that to mean they have to stay away from ALL worldly things and all worldly people. I would ask - how then do you bring the lost to Christ? Wait for them to bang down your door? No, you must go out there and get them, and you must welcome them in. Christ meets us where we are. Remember He said that the sick need the doctor. Too many churches have become a Christian fortress against the world, keeping out even those who deperately need Him and us! "I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world." - 1 Cor. 5:9-10 *getting off my soapbox* In my walk... because in our church we have real fellowship and get really involved in each others' lives (as God's "one another imperatives" tell us to do)... I have seen all of the new Christians over many years struggle over giving up the things of their old selves as they begin to walk with Christ, and we begin to challenge them to do just that. ALL of them realize Christ is right... they cannot serve 2 masters. Most of them choose Him over all else eventually.... some of them choose to go back to the world, which is devastating. Humans love their sin. This is an unfortunate fact. Anyway... We can agree on this truth that EdB laid down. You cannot be dedicated to the world system AND to Christ at the same time. I simply do not see Scriptural validation for deciding that because a person has piercings or tatoos - they are not dedicated to Christ. My main concern is that an attitude of rejecting people simply based on external appearance would NOT be promoted among Christians!! For the record... Sang_Phelg is a SHE, not a he. :) I am a happlily married mom of 3 - the leader of a women's cell group (my husband a leader of a men's cell group) and soon we will be leading a home church as our home church is about to split into 2 new home churches because we have grown too big. - I have studied theology for 8 years now - I have been a Christian 12 years. May you both be blessed - Sang |
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10 | Is this a sin to do | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113020 | ||
Hello again. Hope your day is going well. I agree that the slave's decision was to remain enslaved....... how does that TRULY prove that the same would be true of a person in 2004 getting a body piercing? And since in this Levitical passage you and I are talking about, it is the EAR of the slave that was pierced - let's use that example. If a Christian brother goes out and gets his ear pierced today - how does Leviticus 21:6 PROVE that he is declaring himself to be a slave to the world? And let me understand you on something. If a non-christian comes into your church with an eyebrow piercing, a tatoo on his neck and... let's throw in a nose piercing too (those really freak me. OUCH! Doesn't that HURT?) -- do YOU - EdB - Personally... go up to greet him and welcome him? |
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11 | Is this a sin to do | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113017 | ||
I do not seek to "justify the practice" OR to promote it. I simply answered the question: "IS IT A SIN?" I do not see any Scripture saying that it is. You gave Lev 19:28 as a reference against dishonoring your body. -- "Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves." I am the LORD. - Do you understand that God is forbidding pagan mourning practices here? Cutting your bodies (which is NOT piercing) FOR THE DEAD. -- You MUST understand CONTEXT when you are interpreting Scripture! It is just plain ESSENTIAL! -- Leviticus 19: 26-31 (which include your verse) are forbidding Pagan religious practices which include necromancy, cultic prostitution and pagan mourning rituals. Pagans used to tatoo their bodies with their religious symbols, by the way, and that is what this verse is referring to. That's it. So.... if a Christian friend of mine was headed out to go get a tatoo for the purpose of showing his devotion to a pagan "god" -- I'd take issue with it!! HUGE ISSUE! Or if he was going to cut his body because he was mourning the loss of a loved one - or to put a scar in his body to denote his devotion to a pagan "god" (this was another alternative to tatooing in that day, and some Indonesian tribes still practice this) -- I would also take extreme issue with that!! As for Deut. 14:1 - "You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead" It refers to the same things as in Lev 19:28. -- notice FOR THE DEAD. Pretty important distinction. You could understand either of these passages by understanding that God is saying not to take part in pagan religious practices. PERIOD. As for our bodies being a temple of the Holy Spirit - I completely agree with you. I would not tell anyone that if they wanted to honor God, they should go get a tatoo or a body piercing. We do not disagree on that. It is not done to worship God. It is simply a fashion choice. No one liked John The Baptist's looks either. And for the record they didn't like the way Paul or Jesus looked either! Body piercing, done for fashion and having no religious significance at all... is a disputable matter, and Paul tells us not to cause division based upon those things. (Romans 14) Life is just too short, and our work is just too important. |
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12 | do piercing | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113012 | ||
Edb - Something we can agree on -- the church HAS been way too lax in MANY areas. I will not state which issues those are, for fear of setting off another hail storm of argument. --- However let me sum up by saying this: Jesus Christ was NOT politically correct, and so neither do I seek to be. A politically correct, post-modernist church is an ugly thing to behold. I have to viemently agree to disagree with you on your last point however. Because I believe it is a view that would chase non-christians away and earn us a milstone around our neck. You can NOT take a piercing or a tatoo as a "CLUE TO WHERE THAT PERSON'S HEART IS" and declare that it means "THEIR HEARTS CERTAINLY AREN'T ON THINGS ABOVE (in Heaven)." My God! I believe you are sincere, but I also believe you are sincerely wrong! Please! I impolore you! - Read Psalm 139:23-24 and ask God Himself to examine you. Have a good pow wow with Him about presuming you can judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart based on outward appearances alone! May He help you to reconcile your passion for righteousness (a very good thing) with His passion for the "untouchables" of this world. (a very divine thing) Love to you - Sang |
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13 | do piercing | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 113010 | ||
Good morning (it's morning here anyway) Apparently I gave the impression (?) that I was PROMOTING tatoos and piercings for Christians. I did not say that. I personally don't have any piercings or tatoos, and I would not get them at this point in my life either. They don't fit my personality, and I've never been interested in getting them. MY POINT IS - to discriminate against a Christian because they have tatoos or piercings? - That kind of discrimination would be extremely ugly behavior for a Christian. Some of the greatest destroyers of Christ's character are those people who discriminate against each other based on ridiculous "laws" that they themselves create. To discriminate against a non-christian because they have tatoos or piercings? That would be an offense I belive God Himself would judge us for, and rightly so! How embarassing to be caught by God doing such a thing! Why do I believe these two things to be true? Because piercings ARE NOT FORBIDDEN in the Bible. How dare WE forbid them if God does not? Remember that OldRuggedCross's ORIGINAL QUESTION was this: "Is piercing a SIN?" -- not "How do you all personally FEEL about piercings AND TATOOS?" I simply sought to answer that question based upon SCRIPTURE. -- As far as I can tell, Scripture does NOT say piercing is a sin. Period. Why do Christians love to argue? Puzzling. The Body of Christ is supposed to be a FUNCTIONAL family. We don't have to agree on everything, but tearing each other down for having differing views on NON ESSENTIAL things? - (Romans 14) that doesn't fit in with God's plan for the Body of Christ. I am glad you received Christ (and so the Holy Spirit also) by faith as you stated. May He bless you and grow you and enlighten you daily. May He make you a great winner of souls. Securely in Him - Sang |
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14 | Is this a sin to do | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 112912 | ||
EdB - this is a very interesting perspective. I do not agree with it as you've stated it - linked to body piercings and tatoos. A hole in your body with a peice of metal stuck in it cannot enslave you to the world if you are a Christian living for GOd. A hole in your body with a peice of metal stuck in it can do nothing... but... be a hole in your body with a peice of metal stuck in it. Even if others choose to believe you are not a Christian because of that piercing - that would still be THEM deciding that against you - with no varification from God Himself - and so, an invalid judgment ON THEIR PART. However let's agree with your analogy in this way: I think that a Christian certainly CAN choose to remain enslaved to the world though they are free in Christ. Example: if a Christian chose never to live life abundantly through Christ - meaning they did not take part in the Means of Growth (1.God's Word, 2.Ministry, 3.Active, regular fellowship with other believers, 4.Prayer and 5.Discipline of the Holy Spirit) - then they would be choosing, though free in Christ, to remain enslaved to their former lives and to the world. In that context, your analogy of slavery to the world though free in Christ would work (in my opinion), and would be a very good point. But a body piercing does not have the power to determine whether or not you are free in Christ. It certainly cannot make you a slave to the world. At least... I cannot see how. Blessings, Sang_Phleg |
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