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Results from: Notes Author: Rom831 Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Rom831 | 31533 | ||
I wouldn't be boasting about anything I did, but in the simple fact that God chose me and not them. That's even a better boast. Because if I was bragging about me or something I did or had control over, the other person could simply do it to. But to say God chose me above them? The favoritism God sowed towards me is a HUGE reason to boast!!! "God chose me and not you! I go to heaven and you rot in hell!" "Not fair! How do I get Him to choose me?" "You can't! Ha ha!" "but I don't want to suffer eternal torment" "Too bad, God didn't want you!" Instead, having the offer of salvation available to all eliminates any chance of this. This gift becomes available to al. I can no longer boast this. Jesus paid the price for them as well. God chose them and showed no favoritism to me. That same conversation would be "God has chosen all who believe, and since I do, I'm going to heavn, since you don't, you're not." "Not fair! How do I get Him to choose me?" "You have to believe in His Son Jesus" "I don't want to suffer eternal torment" "Then accept His free gift" I loose my ability to brag because the gift is theirs as well. Not one of those verses does what you hope. Once you understand God didn't choose YOU but He chose those who would accept His Son, you understand how all those verses can actually be fully satisfied and still allow the rest of scripture to be true without spinning what is written. Bless...ArtS |
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2 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Rom831 | 31525 | ||
I mention the questions to point out that Jesus never once held back or instructed us to. While here, He gave to all and instructed us to do the same. Yet when it comes to salvation, you suggest He didnt do this. It doesn't fit. I never said any of us do not deserve hell, we all do. But if He chose me to gt Heaven, that is merciful to me. ut that means He also specifically looked at someone else and said "I will never forgive you and you will burn in Hell because I refuse to give you my love. I will make it so you can never come to me so I can be justified in condeming you to eternal torment because it is my will and desire that you spend eternity in the river of fire." And you better believe, if God chose me and not another person, thet IS a VERY good reason to boast. Throw your spin out here and tell me why its not. But sorry, it aint going to work. You say "perhaps, maybe Jesus didn't die for the sins of every single human being". Yet the Bible says He died for the sins of the world. Seems pretty inclusive to me. Please show me where Jesus' death did not cover all sins. No "perhaps" or "maybe". God may show love and mercy to me. But in your model, He by His choice alone, refuses it to the vast majority of His creation. Then He says to love each other as He loved us. So then, really, I only have to love a few peple. I can hate and condemn the rest, right? I was very careful of my wording. I worship the God in the Bible. God IS love (1John4:8). God does not show partiality (Deu 10:17), od shows loving kindness to ALL who call UPON HIM (Ps86:5), God doesn't love some, but the world (john3:16), He is not willing that even one shall be lost (Mat18:14). None of these fit with a God who refuses His love and grace to the lost. God saving some is merciful. But there are two heads to every coin. God refusing His love and mercy to others based soely on His decision alone, thus condemining them to eternal torment, is NOT loving or merciful. Bless...ArtS P.S. I am sorry I did not provide the scripture verses in the last post. I thought the things I was referring to were trecognizeable enough without them to realize they were scripture. |
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3 | Is God really just? | Deut 32:4 | Rom831 | 31424 | ||
How does this fit with the teachings of Jesus? Are we as Christians told to be servants of believers only, or servants? Was the Samaritan wrong for helping someone who was not a Samaritan? Would he not have been better off passing the other by and only offering his gift to another Samaritan? Why should we go into all nations and not just to those nations who are more open to recieve the gift? Why should we try to rerach and baptize all nations instead of only a few select ones more open to the gift? Are we to love each other as Jesus loved us? Or are we to only love those we choose to love and its ok to hate and condemn the others as you say Jesus did by not offering any chance of avoiding eternal torment in the river of fire? When somone knocks and asks for a loaf of bread, should we give him a stone and only give the loaf to some of those whom we choose to give our gift? I'm sorry, maybe its my limited mind, but I cannot comprehend Calling God just, in any way, if He randomly chooses the majority of people and refuses them His grace and intern condemns them to hell. If Jesus paid the price, justice is served. If God offers his forgivness to everyone justice is served even if some refuse it. If God chose me over someone else to recieve His forgivness and chose that person to suffer in Hell, then that is not justice, that is not love, and it is not mercy. It is favoritism (a sin) to me and the ultimate cruelty (a sin) to the other person because it was not that person, but God who refused to love and forgive that sinner. If Jesus paid the price for us and offered it to everyone who would believe, He is loving and that love is perfect. If He paid the price that would cover everyone, but went down the list saying "You I choose to save, but you can burn in Hell" then He is cruel and what love He has is not perfect, but highly selective. That is just not the loving, perfect, loving God I know and worship. That is a hateful, mean tyrant. How can you be loving and merciful and choose that the majority of your creation will suffer torment for ever and ever? I cannot believe that. I hope this thread will be short, because honestly, I am closed minded on this. I just had to voice my extreme confusion on even the thought of this concept. I will not believe in a God that would be this cruel. |
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4 | We perfect our faith? | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30900 | ||
Technically, yes we can "do as much of it as we please". But not in reality because, as Christians, we strive not to. Faith without works is dead, remember? but we ALL DO sin. Sin is sin. Denying Christ and therefore His gift of salvation is totally different. I'm not saying Jesus denying us is a little thing. It very much IS a big thing. But we see Jesus say that if we deny Him, so will He deny us. his words, not mine. saying tat non believers will go to hell is not judging them. Its repeating what Jesus said will happen. Saying "You are going to hell" is different than saying "If you don't believe in Jesus, you will go to hell." The first is a judgment. The second is an if/then statement and is conditional. Ok... There is also a difference between a deathbed acceptance and a calculated deathbed acceptance. Acceptace, at anytime, has to be sincere, not just words you say to get a get out of hell free card. If you say "I'm going to party and have fun and sin all over, and wait until I'm dying, then accept Christ" it would raise grave concerns on the sincerity of their final acceptance. Bless...ArtS |
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5 | We perfect our faith? | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30895 | ||
Grrrr... I just wrote a long reply, hit send, it said I couldn't use one symbol I used, I hit back, and it was all gone. In brief (because I dont want to retype the long one), we do not "deny Christ" when we sin. When we sin, we sin. When we sin, we are not following His commands (John 14:21-24), but that does not mean we have denied Christ. Just that we have sinned. The Matthew verses do not say this is a final decision and any attemp to make them say that is from you, not from God's words. No where does it say its a one-time decesion. denying God after we have received Him can be for many reasons. For you to say its because our first choice was done without "much conviction" is a judgment we cannot make. I have seen people lead away by believing Satan's lies, one by death and one by being raped. For me to say "well, they just really didn't believe before" is for me to judge them. The thief did exactly what you said mocks God. He denied Christ all his life "until just prior to death, then be fully reinstated to a sinless state with no accountability." I would like you to find one verse that says we cnnot be lost all our lives and not saved at the end of it. Or find me one verse that says if we knock, God will not always open the door. Jesus IS our salvation, period. He offers it as a free gift to us. All we do is accept or deny it. "Super Arminian", lol. Do I get a cape with that? Gotta love labels. Bless...ArtS |
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6 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30890 | ||
He was not physically dead. He was dead to God. Just like all non believers are (Let the dead bury the dead). When he returned to God, he was made alive "again" in God. Bless...ArtS |
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7 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30824 | ||
I'm not having any problems understanding the prodigal. Makes perfect sense to me. Bless...ArtS |
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8 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30810 | ||
Sorry... You added that. The father never says he "thought" his son was dead. He said his son WAS dead. Bless...ArtS |
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9 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30691 | ||
That's very pretty. But You are writing between the lines. Look at what it DOES say, not what you'd like it to say. Does the son or the father say the son was lost? The father. Does the son or the father say the son was dead? The father. How did he become dead to the father? Just as the verse says: Luke 15:24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate. Its right there. It may not be as fun and goody goody as your version, but its what God says. Bless...ArtS |
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10 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30673 | ||
I disagree, there are three parables in a row - lost sheep, lost coin, lost son. Why would the first two talk about one thing and then the third completely switch when it 100 percent fits and expands on the first two? As far as giving up the inheritance, loosing it would imply that he did something wrong and it was taken from him. This did not happen. Instead, he gave it up. Is there precident for this? Genesis 25:31-34. Esau gave his inheritance away to get food, just as the prodigal gave his away for earthly wealth. And what happened to Jacob and Esau? God loved Jacob and hated Esau (Mal 1:2-3). In the same sense, when the prodigal forfited his inheritance, he became dead to God until he came back to Him. Bless...ArtS |
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11 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30642 | ||
I did not say this was due to a sin. The other son sinned too when he complained, but he didn't loose it. In fact, the prodigal didn't "loose" it either, he gave it up. You are right, he lost his inheritnce. But what is our inheritance? It IS the kingdom of God. Matthew 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world." Not only does it say he became lost to the father (God), but "dead". Those who are dead to the father (God) are those who are not saved, who are not in Him. We cannot loose our salvation by sinning. But we can reject it. Bless...ArtS |
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12 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30621 | ||
Ok...? The first two deal with the lost being found; with Jesus' giving salvation. So does the third. However the third is dealing with one who WAS alive with God, then dead, then alive "again." I'm sorry, its right there. The only way to deny it is to ignore what is said. Bless...ArtS |
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13 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30620 | ||
Sorry, those are Jesus' words. All He would hav had to do is not say them to change the meaning. Yet He did. He is perfect, you and I are not. Had He not wanted it to mean that, He would not has misspoke. You say exactly what I mean. No, the son didn't litterally die. But he died to the Father, he died to God. What does it mean to be dead to God? To not be saved. You are also right, this parable IS about the lost being found. This just happens to be someone who WAS found, then lost, then found "again". Bless...ArtS |
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14 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30618 | ||
What is up with tis forum. Do I see one single thread of discussion there about what I said? No. One single verse to counter? No. Instead, just more insults. Yes, I am at church 2-3 times a week (Lutheran but I do not claim the denomination). This includes 2-3 services a week (I'm in the band), Bible Study, and small group. Not including the countless studies and times reading individual verses and chapters, I am currently on my third time reading through the Bible in a third version of it. Besides reading the Bible (and the occasional Left Behind novel), pretty much all my reading is in non-fiction Christian studies, science and growth. Televangelists? I heard Billy Grahm speak once. Sounded good, but didn't trip my trigger. Go ahead, keep ignoring what the Bible says and keep attacking me. Have fun! Bless...ArtS |
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15 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30616 | ||
Once again, you attack me and not what I say. You do not address the verses I use to support what I say, instead attack splling to defend your view. My arguments are sound and supported as I have shown. Feel free to hang onto your stubborn refusal of the words of Jesus and grasp on to your doctrine if it makes you feel so supperior. Bless...ArtS |
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16 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30480 | ||
Please show me where oyu assertain that my "Art's analysis of the parable of the prodigal son is not based on sound principles of Biblical interpretation". Excuse me? Just because you refuse to accept what Jesus point blank says, does not ditract from my Biblical intrepretation. The father is God. The son was a a son, he had an inheritance from God. what we inherit is the kingdom of God (Mat 25:34). Therefore he was saved because that is how we get an "inheritance" (1Pet1). God then says he became dead to God. when he returned to God, there was a celebration. Why? The parable before shows us why, because the sinner epented and came to God. Alive, dead, alive. Where else is this supported? Heb 6:4-6 shows we CAN fall away. Mark 9:42 shows we can cause others (little ones) to sin. Romans 11:22-23 show that some people fell yet if they discontinue their unbelife, they can be grafted back in (sorry, it uses "those" and "you" which imply people, not nations). In Galatians 5, Paul is talking to the church, to believers and in verse 4 says by trying to follow the law, some have fallen away. And on and on. Furthermore, The parable in question is one of three righ there about the same topic - Jesus saving the lost. Not about pharasies grumbling. You have not showen once where the other two relate to the pharasies grumbling to establish the contxt you are trying to force this parable into. Instead, I have shown where my intrepretation fit into the context of the other parables Jesus was giving at the same time. Remember, there are two other parables between where the pharasies "grumble" and this one. BOTH of those speak to Jesus coming to save and say NOTHING about the pharasies "grumblings". Why pray tell are you so certain Jesus would speak twice of salvation, then stop speaking of salvation to wander back and make suck a weak statment against the pharasies grumbling? No, sorry, Jesus was speaking of saving thelost in the parable of the sheep, then in the parable of the coin, then in this parable as well. But if you do not ignore Jesus words, you clearly see this lost person He is saving WAS savd before. So please, show me where I am not comparing scripture to scripture. Show me where my intrepretation is out of context with the rest of what Jesus is saying in that lesson. Oterwise, believe Jesus' own words and not the doctrine you hold so firmly to. Bless...ArtS |
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17 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30477 | ||
sory, I cannot see that. This one talks about a son, who had an inheritance from the father (God). That means he was saved. Then the father, God, clearly says the son was lost and dead. Then became found and alive "again". I guess I don't like the term to "loose your salvation". Its not a matter of loosing it or having it taken away. Its a matter of rejecting it when we turn from God. How many times? Don't know. How many times can you truely accept Christ then turn away? In reality, I can't see this happening much, but I have seen it twice. One turned away then back (after a rape). One turned away after seeing his mother waste away with cancer. The second hasn't returned unfrtunately. Bless...ARtS |
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18 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30475 | ||
Excuse me? I have read and studied the Bible and continue to do so. Reguardles if you can't handle someone pointing out flaws in your intrepetations. Pull the plank out of your eye before commentin on a splnter in mine. Bless...ArtS |
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19 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30347 | ||
It fits in the EXACT way the other two parables fit in. All three speak about saving the lost - the coin, the sheep, the son. You are picking on this one parable and ignoring the other two that address the same thing. They are all talking about saving the lost. This one just talks about that were saved, the lost then saved "again". Hebrews is easy. Can that person renew themselves? No. Can we renew them? No. Can God? Yes: Matt 19:26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Look at those verses again though. It says in the case of those who HAVE BEEN partakers of the Holy Spirit and THEN have fallen away. It clearly says they CAN fall away. And no, we can't get them back, only God can. Bless...ArtS |
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20 | "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED"!!! | Matt 22:37 | Rom831 | 30341 | ||
But see, the difference is that you are misrepresenting the point of the parable. That parable talks about ask and you shall recieve, knock and the door will be open. It is made clear that if we do this, God WILL respond. So your generalization goes against that parable. The one I brought up does no such thing. You are simply ignoring part of what Jesus said in order to maintain your belife. Bless...ArtS |
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