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Results from: Notes Author: RoaringLamb Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 111286 | ||
It's disheartening that you separate me from you and others in this forum, as though my being wrong on this issue (if that's the case) makes me a non-believer. Referring to yourselves as "a different breed of cat" to whom I must "prove any and everything...with Scripture" suggests that I disregard Scripture! Is this the spirit by which Christ's disciples are to discuss their disagreements? Paul warned against rivalry and contention among Christ's followers (ICor. 1:12, 3:4; Gal. 5:20). In Galatians the RSV calls it "party spirit." It's a "we-verusus-they" attitude among believers. Sure, I could be a NON-believer (or worse, antichrist) - infiltrating this site as an enemy trying to subvert it's mission. But you have no indication that is the case. After all, our understanding or MIS-understanding of this particular issue does not affect our salvation, does it? It is not the criterion by which we determined Christians. What - according to Scripture - is the "litmus test" of discipleship? For lack of space - and because I'm confident you already know - I'll leave it as a rhetorical question, for now. Also, I'd like to get back to the issue at hand as soon as possible. However, I think it's vital to this discussion that we recognize the UN-Christian things we do to each other when we disagree and, more important, the Biblical prohibitions against them. I truly believe these tactics are precisely why certain debates have persisted among us for centuries. It is why we have different "schools of thought" and cluster ourselves accordingly. One reason this discussion has not progressed is a practice I find to be all too common: we place rhetorical constraints (RULES) upon others we don't follow ourselves - ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO SEPARATING THE LITERAL FROM THE FIGURATIVE! If we come from one school of thought (or "ism") on a doctrine, we accept its assumptions regarding the figurative/literal aspect of a word or phrase whether the Scripture involved indicates such or not. We become quite arbitrary in requiring explicit indication of one or the other. Tim and I have reached an impasse over the use of the term "asleep" in various passages. All I've asked is a simple acknowledgement that the notion it is a poetic term referring ONLY to dead bodies IS NOT explicit in any of the cited passages and must be INTRODUCED INTO EACH PASSAGE FROM ELSEWHERE. To concede this does not automatically render his conclusions false - nor mine to be true, for that matter. Paul taught that we should "each esteem other better than" ourselves (Phillipians 2:3). In so doing, I believe we all want to be honest with ourselves and each other. We all have the "lowliness of mind" (same verse) to consider the possibility we are wrong on a given point. Thus, we would also - even if we "know" we are right - if nothing else, FOR THE SAKE OF A FELLOW BELIEVER - spend some time humbly before God, seeking his guidance for responses to one another. I find responses to my posts to be quite rapid, however. I pray that each of us will consider the possibility that we might be hasty with our answers, or that even though we have knowledge we may still learn something from the other. Or if the other has something to learn, we will seek to edify our brother rather than conquer him. |
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2 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 108121 | ||
Greeting, Makarios, It's good to know others are following this discussion. I think it's a very important one and hope others will join in. Of course, it would be nice if someone else besides me could see the contradictions in Tim's line of reasoning, as well as the liberties taken with God's word. We (Christians) have a tendency to draw conclusions from passages what is simply not written. Instead of saying, as Jesus did, "It is written," we say "It says..." and proceed to inject our opinions and presumptions into the passages we quote. I would be interested to know what you think of what I said about God not trying to mislead us and why he wouldn't use even "poetic" language to imply other than what he wants us to understand. To anyone else out there folowing this thread who sees the HONESTY in the way I deal with the scriptures, it would be nice to get your input also. Even if you basically disagree with me, what I'm seeking is direct engagement of my arguments - that is, if I make a point, don't answer a related but TANGENTIAL point. STAY ON THE SUBJECT! And by all means, give me the scriptures WITHOUT THE FILLERS! Be careful with semantics - scrutinize every word. Read 2 Timothy - especially the passages about sound doctrine, and the time when not many would endure it! I believe that time is NOW. |
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3 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 108120 | ||
Greetings, Tim! Remember my plea for honest and fair discussion? (See #106823) You wrote: "Allow me to touch yet again upon 1 Thess. 4:14." Then immediately jumped to verse 17! Earlier, YOU focused on vs. 14, as evidence that "sleep" refers only to dead bodies, calling it your "primary point." Then I pointed out that vs. 14 says God brings those who are asleep, which - according to your own definition - could only refer to dead bodies. Then, totally IGNORING my point, you shift focus to vs. 17!? Then you say your "understanding" of vs. 17 is that "the 'spiritual' part of man returns with Christ, then their bodies are raised in v. 17" - AS IF I HAVE DENIED SUCH! My point was that - according to YOUR stipulation that "those who are asleep" refers strictly to dead bodies - v.14 which you also agreed says God brings "those who are asleep" - he would have to bring dead bodies! After I challenge the inconsistency therein, you imply that I DENIED the difference between the body and spirit! Tim, that is simply misconstruing what has been said - by me AND by you! Also, you say I answered my own question re Ecc. 9:5 and Ps. 146:4 by suggesting they're poetic, when YOU are the one who introduced the term "poetic" to this discussion. I pointed out that calling them poetic has no effect on what they are teaching. (Again, from you, silence on that point and the reasoning I presented concerning God not being the author of confusion.) Your response: "the writer of Ecclesiastes seems to have no knowledge whatsoever of man's future destiny...," suggesting he doesn't know what he's talking about. The problem with that reasoning is that it denies the Word of that says "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God..." (I don't have time to look it up, but I think it's in 2 Tim. 3:16, or thereabouts). So, are we now free to disqualify scripture that disagrees with what we believe? Tim, I believe you're sincere and seeking truth as I am, so I IMPLORE you: please consider prayerfully whether you are being honest - if not with me - at least with yourself, and are "rightly dividing the word of truth"! It's not enough to say something is "my understanding" when holding up ideas as sound doctrine! |
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4 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 108009 | ||
CDBJ, I need to correct myself per my previous reply. I didn't mean to say "Everything Tim believes I believed," but rather "Everything Tim has said regarding this issue" I believed at one time. Obviously, I can't presume to have believed everything Tim believes, since I don't know everything he believes. My apologies to Tim! |
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5 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 108007 | ||
CDBJ, thanks for your input. For now, please see my last reply to Tim Moran in this thread. Tim has already brought up the passages you refer to and I intend to address them, but this is going to be a long discussion -- one that I've had numerous times over the past 20 plus years. I know exactly where it's going, all the arguments that will be made, all the common errors people make when presenting argument. To get to the FUNDAMENTAL truths that settle this issue is going to require recognizing, first, that beneath every belief that is NOT a fundamental truth is AT LEAST a fundamental truth (IF the belief is TRUE), and - for MOST - SEVERAL PREMISES! (Read Isaiah 28:9-9 KJV) ERROR occurs when one or more of the underlying principles is FALSE. Next, we must move TOWARD the fundamentals rather than AWAY from them, as MOST people do when everyone tries to defend his position rather than submit his preconceptions to testing. In other words, we need to be willing to be found to have been WRONG, admit when we are, and CHANGE our views. Everything Tim believes I BELIEVED at one time! But once shown the truth - after having bodly proclaimed otherwise to many people - I had to face a decision: Either come up with more creative ways to "explain" what I was holding to, or humble myself and admit I was WRONG! In some cases, PUBLICLY! For now, if you will, please see my last response to Tim, as it's related to those points you raise, perhaps it may not be obvious. |
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6 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 108003 | ||
Of 1 Thess. 4:14 you said: “The text says that God will bring with Him those who are asleep, then their bodies are caught up into the air.” But where does it say “their BODIES are caught up into the air”? You are reading into the text what you already believe, then saying, “Look, there it is!” What – exactly – does it say? That God will bring “them…which SLEEP” (KJV)! Yet you say sleep is “a poetic term describing a dead body.” Does this mean God will bring dead bodies? Do you see the contradiction? Going strictly by what is written, we cannot assuredly say the body “sleeps” – to the EXCLUSION of the soul. However, we CAN assuredly say that WHATEVER God brings, THAT is also shown as being asleep. Which IS it? Furthermore, calling “sleep” a poetic term doesn’t change the image it clearly depicts. Yes, the Bible uses every literary device known – from metaphors to hyperboles – but for what purpose? To mislead and confuse? Or to clarify and teach? Does God – who is NOT the author of confusion – use imagery to imply the opposite of what he means? Taken at face value, the passage clearly depicts the dead in Christ as being asleep until their resurrection at Christ’s return. So do other passages I’ve cited. And, though you claim to have dealt with all my questions, you’ve completely ignored those regarding Eccl. 9:5 and Psalm 146:4. What is figurative about the statements that the dead “know not any thing” and their “thoughts perish”? Poetic? Perhaps. Clear in meaning? Definitely! And let’s not forget the original scripture in this thread, John 3:13: “NO ONE has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man” (NASB)! When Jesus said this, many whom we KNOW died in Christ – including King David – were already dead but not yet descended to heaven: “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchure is with us unto this day….for David is not ascended into the heavens….” (Acts 2:29, 34 KJV). Here, then, was the perfect chance for one sent of God (namely, Peter) to stave off any possible confusion over the fact – had it been true – that David himself was actually alive in heaven rather than asleep, as he was implying. Instead, we find him pointing to his tomb, emphasizing that David was still dead, followed by the explicit claim that he had not yet ascended to heaven. Again, I will address all those scriptures that, at first glance, seem to contradict all I’ve suggested so far; but these posts can only be so long, right? Meanwhile I pray that you will confront these I’ve cited head-on – and that I recognize and accept the truth from God that comes through you. May the Spirit of Christ rule both our hearts, my friend! |
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7 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 107556 | ||
Greetings, Tim! I’m afraid you’ve missed the point of my question and still haven’t responded to verses showing the dead as asleep prior to their resurrection. At issue is whether we go immediately to heaven or hell at death and are conscious until resurrection. The Bible reveals a God of order (1 Cor. 14:33) who marks steps in his salvation plan with well-ordered, specific events involving great numbers of people at a time. The resurrections are such events. Meanwhile, the dead are repeatedly depicted as being asleep. Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV) reads: “13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep…14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven…and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.” Notice: The dead “ARE ASLEEP” – not WERE. Also, they sleep “in Jesus.” You might say this means they’re in heaven, since Jesus is; however, when Jesus was on earth he said he was “in the Father” – who was in heaven (John 14:10-12). Furthermore, for 3 days and 3 nights he remained in the grave (Matt. 12:40). So even JESUS had to be resurrected before bodily ascending to heaven as a man. We are imitators of Christ, and “follow in his steps” (1 Peter 2:21). Also notice, “the dead in Christ shall rise first” – does it say only their BODIES will rise? No, it says “the dead in Christ” – this cannot just refer to their bodies. So, the full import of my question is: for what purpose would God cause those who die in Christ – who follow Christ’s steps – to take a different path than Christ took? Again, a God of order, he shows heavenly patterns in the earthly. The church is called the bride of Christ. On earth, the groom does not take the bride home BEFORE THE MARRIAGE! The marriage supper of the Lamb occurs AFTER his return. Why would God violate his own design? If the righteous dead are conscious in heaven, why does Psalm 146:4 (KJV) say of man that, at death “he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish” and Ecclesiastes 9:5 that “the dead know not any thing”? Finally, Daniel 12:2 says in the end time “many that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life…” If already alive in heaven, why would they need to “awake” to life? Your Brother, in Christ, RL. |
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8 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 106823 | ||
Thanks, Tim! You make some good points. I’ll respond to them all, but it’s going to require several exchanges – and honest and fair discussion – for us to reach a unified view. By “honest and fair,” I mean we engage one another by the same rhetorical constraints. We’ve already agreed, for example, to avoid speculation. But how do we distinguish speculation from valid inferences? Frequently, doctrines we hold to are not explicitly or succinctly stated in a single verse or passage, or sometimes not explicitly stated at all. Indeed, many of our most cherished doctrines are (by necessity) derivative rather than fundamental (Isaiah 28:9-10). So, how do we tell them apart? Easy: fundamental truths are universal, unchangeable, non-circumstantial, independent of prior premise or explanation, and ARE explicitly stated; derivative precepts lack one or more of these and are NOT explicitly stated. For example, “God is love” (1 John 4:8, 16); “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8); and God “cannot lie” (Titus 1:2) – fundamental. Saying whether or not the appearance of Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration means death is only an altered state of consciousness requires prior assumptions. Neither this passage nor any of the others you cited – alone or in consideration of the others – makes a definitive statement in this regard. However, the passages I have cited – in this branch and in other branches in which you and I have had exchanges – ARE explicit regarding the RESURRECTION of the dead and the biblical DEFINITION of death. Yet I cannot seem to elicit a direct response to these passages and their bearing on this issue. Significant is the fundamental truth that our entrance into our final reward takes place at our resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). Also fundamental, resurrection is from earth to sky (Daniel 12:2; Isaiah 26:19) and not vice versa. Can we agree on these two points? If not, stop here and respond – I need to know my error. However, if you agree, please answer this: if the righteous dead are already in heaven, what need have they for a resurrection? If heaven is the reward of the saved, what purpose would it serve for God to bring them back FROM heaven and plant them back into the ground, just to raise them back up to heaven? |
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9 | How does John 3:13 fit with Genesis 5:24 | John 3:13 | RoaringLamb | 104542 | ||
Emmaus, Your response sounds reasonable, but is it scriptural? Doesn't 1 Thess. 4:13-17 show us that the righteous dead are asleep and will remain until Christ returns? See also Matthew 24:27-31; I Cor. 15:51-54; Ecc. 9:5; John 11:11-14 -- paying particular attention to the mention of a "trumpet" in the first 2 passages. Then, read Revelation, paying particular attention to Revelation 11:15. We should avoid speculation as we edify one another. |
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10 | wll everyone hear abt jesus before death | Rom 2:13 | RoaringLamb | 104536 | ||
Greetings, Robert. Your response to bocfloyd is right along the lines of what I would have said. When reading it, I'd hoped you would take it a little farther, part of the original question having been left unanswered: is it possible for someone to live and die having never heard the gospel of Christ. This of course leads to another question: How does a just God, who has determined that salvation comes only through his son, make provision for those who, through circumstances beyond their control, never heard the only Name by which they may be saved? I'm not directing the question to you, because I think you may already know the answer. However, I do plan to respond to bocfloyd with an answer and would be interested in your input. One of the biggest areas of confusion among searchers and believers alike is what happens to the saved and lost at death. Just this morning, on the radio, I heard a famous preacher say that the saved go immediately to heaven at death. THE VAST MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THIS UNBIBLICAL TEACHING! What does the Bible teach on this? |
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11 | WHY DO WE NEED TO EVANGALIZE? | Matt 28:19 | RoaringLamb | 91211 | ||
Lionstrong, have you read Hank's post above? I agree with what he points out: the Bible does not teach that God destined anyone to go to hell. On what scriptures is the assumption that God has already decided based? |
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12 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 91038 | ||
EdB, I never said the "Case Against Christianity" is valid. I'm not attempting to justify unbelief. What I'm saying is that sound doctrine should be taught rather than error. Sound doctrine is more likely to convince the nonbeliever than fables full of contradictions. You and I need no convincing - we already believe. But many who don't believe are hindered by reason. For many who are now converted - such as myself - certain reasonable objections had to be overcome. As I told mommapbs, I have been discussing this extensively elsewhere in this branch and the one I began with the question, "Rapture different from Second Coming?" What I ask is that you respond to what I have already said regarding the accuracy of the teachings. There IS no case against the gospel - the GOOD NEWS that Jesus taught. But the popularly taught fables contradict each other at several points. I am addressing these, point-by-point, and scripture-by-scripture. If we would continue in this manner - rather than trying to fell ideas that challenge cherished beliefs in one swift blow - I think we will all learn from each other. So, please consider the evidence I've presented, enlighten me with yours, and let us seek to come to agreement. Your brother in Christ, RL |
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13 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 91025 | ||
Greeting, mommapbs! Thank you for the welcome. Since my note to you, a few people have joined in on the discussion: Morant61 (Tim Moran), gracefull, and MaTT. To save time, I ask you to take a look at those exchanges, as well as those following a question I submitted, "Rapture different from Second Coming?" which is related to this subject. But here's the premise, in a nutshell: It is too late for those who have already died without having professed Christ. They are forever lost and, according to what most Christians - in my experience and by what I've read - believe, they are already burning in hell. Incongruously, most also believe in a "secret" rapture, in which Christ returns to Earth years before what we call "the Second Coming" or "the Glorious Appearing" (although some even differentiate between these as two separate events). Whether we (the saved) understand these things or not has no effect on our salvation, but it is a stumblingblock to many who might believe, in that it contradicts the very gospel we exhort them to believe - that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, that God is love, and that he is willing that none should perish, that he is just, and that he is sovereign. In fact, this has been called by many "The Case Against Christianity"! In Jesus' Name, Jay |
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14 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90467 | ||
gracefull, Forgive me if I came off as being impertinent or even sarcastic. I was trying to lighten it up a little. I realize we are discussing important issues. Thank you for being full of grace, as your handle implies. And you're right, time is of the essence, so I'll be brief when I can. Also, I agree that we (Christians) have not properly understood death. Neither do I have a problem with God translating someone, or allowing anyone to escape death -- in fact, I'm quite happy that the majority of mankind WILL escape death, that is, the SECOND death. But for you and me, I'm not even concerned about that, because YOU AND I HAVE ALREADY BEEN TRANSLATED INTO THE KINGDOM THE SAME WAY ENOCH WAS! For an explanation, please see my note to Tim Moran lower in this branch, dated 7/24/03, 11:21 a.m. Better yet, go to the beginning of our exchanges and read them all in order. We can talk more later. God speed, my Brother! |
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15 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90455 | ||
Greeting, Tim! You are correct. The exact verbs are different. However, the import is the same. At least the lexicographers and Bible translators thought so. The same English words appear in the definitions of the root Greek words for both verbs. Coupled with the common root, they form the equivalent of our English word "translated." Now, I'm no expert on Greek but I am familiar with English. In English, we often use different inflections of a word to say the same thing, or use different words that mean exactly the same thing (ensure, insure; flammable, inflammable). We refer to Strong's as an authority for what Greek words and roots the English words were translated from, but to define the Greek to us they still have to use English! We also recognize the expertise of Bible translators in our use of English translations. Often we use the former to check the accuracy of the latter. However, this time they agree. Do we now disqualify both? The direct comparison, then, is valid. Both verbs carry the same import: to transpose, to transfer, to change, or to remove. Then we still haven't dealt with John 3:13. If Enoch, Elijah, David, and no one else has gone to heaven, where are they now? The answer to these questions will lead us to other, more important, questions. After all, these things do not determine our salvation, do they? But there is an aspect that is important to our service to God - particularly as pertains to reaching the unsaved - and that's where I am heading with this. As for anything not explicitly stated being speculation, if we ascribe to this stipulation, we have to throw out many major doctrines - including the idea that "translated" in the passages we are discussing means "taken to heaven." Neither the Strong's definitions nor the English renderings of these verses explicitly say that. It is clear that we get our meaning from context -- but not just the immediate context of the verses or even just the chapters. The context is the whole Bible (2 Tim. 3:16). The COMPLETE study on this involves many other scriptures and leaves nothing to speculation. I am confident that the Spirit of God will lead us to truth. As "iron sharpens iron," both blades must lose some of their iron, and both become sharper. Your brother in Christ, RL |
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16 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90385 | ||
Hi, Tim! Thanks for the assist. I've seen some of your input on other branches and was hoping we would eventually get to sharpen each other's swords. There's so much we need to discuss in the body of Christ! I hope you will check out a discussion under the "Rapture different from Second Coming?" branch and join in. By the way, what is your take on my reply to MaTT? And does the above error have any effect on what is being said overall? In Christ, RL |
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17 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90379 | ||
Hi, MaTT - We can be certain from the scriptures that Enoch died (so did Elijah), as we'll see below. But first, let's see how many have erred in reading this verse... The words "so as not to see death" are not the same as "did not die." The KJV and ASV read "that he should not see death"; and the RSV reads "so that he should not see death." Enoch was translated to escape the same death you and I have been translated and shall escape: the second death. The Greek word "metatithemi" translated in this verse into the English word "translated" is also used in Colossians 1:13 to describe WHAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED TO THE SAINTS (that is, YOU AND ME): "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son..." (KJV) The NAS says "transferred us into the kingdom," and the NKJ uses "conveyed." The Greek can be translated as transfer, change, carry over, or remove. When we were saved, we were translated into the kingdom of the Son. So was Enoch - he was merely CONVERTED, as we have been. His not seeing death is no more a contradiction as Jesus saying of us: "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" - we might croak but we'll never PERISH (John 3:16). But how do we know that Enoch died? Because JESUS HIMSELF TOLD US! NO ONE - neither Enoch, Elijah, not even king David, a man after God's own heart - has yet gone to heaven (that is, the third heaven, where Jesus now is): "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." (John 3:13) Now, this raises a whole lot of other questions, doesn't it? Yeah, I know... |
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18 | Rapture different from Second Coming? | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90290 | ||
Hi, MaTT - thanks for your response (actually, I'm Roaring Lamb - I was replying to justme). Yes, it looks like we are pretty much on the same page. I hope it continues this way. If you follow some of the discussions I will be involved in shortly, you will find that a lot of what I espouse goes against a lot of popular Christian teaching. But you will also find that I believe in SOUND DOCTRINE - which the Bible predicted would be pretty much SCARCE in the last days (2 Timothy 4:3). You'll also find I HAVE NO REGARD FOR ANYONE'S OPINION - NOT EVEN MINE! I'm only interested in what the Bible teaches on any topic. If someone corrects me on a point, I WILL CHANGE MY POSITION. See how many times THAT occurs in this forum! |
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19 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90287 | ||
gracefull: I had just sent you a note on another branch and was about to sign off when I spotted your handle on this one. So I got curious and read through this discussion between you and Ed. I appreciate your desire to get people to THINK! Too often we start with what we "know" already and build from there (I'm talking from personal - as in "I'm guilty" - experience). Now I have made a habit of "starting from scratch" every week. That is, I reasses my basic beliefs -- I go back to the lowest principles on which I base my beliefs and try to disprove them according to scripture. I re-examine them in light of new knowledge or input from fellow believers. As a result, I have had to discard errant beliefs in favor of obvious biblical truth. I've just revisited Enoch and Elijah and see nothing that says they did not die. Now I know I sound like a heretic now, but let's discuss this before you decide, okay? What I ask is that you show me specifically the words that say Enoch or Elijah did not die and we'll take it from there. Here's my promise: if after several exchanges on this topic, you still think I'm off my rocker and you no longer want to hear from me, I'll honor your request. Fair enough? In Christ, Roaring Lamb |
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20 | Searching for the truth | 1 Thess 4:17 | RoaringLamb | 90280 | ||
gracefull - I haven't abandoned this branch and still intend to return to finish that discussion. I have been working on a long reply to "justme" to his reply to a question I submitted. I invite you to take a look at the branch under the question: "Rapture different from Second Coming?" Please give me your thoughts on it if you do read it. Love, In Christ Roaring Lamb |
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