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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37933 | ||
What Paul Really Said About Women by John Temple Bristow is also very enlightening. Talk to you soon, OT | ||||||
2 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37930 | ||
I apologize for the delay in replying, hope to get to it soon. I also apologize if any of you have tried to get to my website but couldn't, it appears to be offline because of excess bandwidth. Please try again later, Thanks, OldTimer. | ||||||
3 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37264 | ||
I have no idea what a genitive possessive is, sorry. The reason that 1 Timothy 2:12 refers to marriage is context: Paul refers to Adam and Eve, who were husband and wife, and to the woman-wife (singular) bearing children in v.15. I'm sure that Paul didn't have in mind just any male/female relationship - but the marriage relationship leading to child bearing. To construe this passage as referencing ANY male/female relationship, or meaning headship of men to women in general, would impy that any man could lawfully impregnate any woman, wouldn't it? I did state in one of my many posts, that headship DOES exist today, but not all men over all women as you stated (at least I think it was you, someone did!) - but as headship of the husband over the wife as in Eph. 5:22. As for the deceived part, I need to re-read your original post, as I've forgotten what point you were making with that, OK? |
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4 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37141 | ||
If you believe that Aquila was a pastor, I don't see how you cannot give the same title to Priscilla as their duties and minstry was jointly performed, except for the fact that there is a prejudice against women pastors and leaders in the church today. If you are content that you and your wife are following God's plan for your lives, I can't argue with that. However, to deny a person their calling as a pastor, teacher, apostle, evangelist, prophet or deacon on the basis of gender alone is beyond your authority. I am not a feminist, but I do want to live in the equality, freedom, and unity that Christ has purchased for us by His blood. I belong to a denomination that has always allowed every person, male or female, to fulfill his/her calling in the Lord. We don't have women clamouring for position, as some might suppose, but as God calls and equips them, as they receive training and approval of church leadership, they serve our Lord with thanksgiving and gladness. I would not want to be the one to oppose or discourage such as these. If you do, then you must give an account at the Bema - the judgment seat of Christ. I have done my best to help your understanding, I'm sorry it was not good enough. | ||||||
5 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37138 | ||
The problem with your reasoning is that you are ignoring "the clear revelation of Scripture" regarding the women who are mentioned in the NT as performing the ministry of an apostle, prophets, evangelists, pastors/teachers and deacons, possibly even an overseer (see my comments some where below, to me the offshoots of these commentaries are somewhat confusing). The point being that if only men could be in leadership, then no women would be mentioned in the NT as being leaders. As I also commented (somewhere?), the doctrine of the headship of the husband to the wife is not the same as headship of all men to all women. Let me try to give an example. My husband is my head, but not all the other men in my church or community. My husband may request me to clean his toilet and I would do so. But if a man walking down the street grabbed me by the arm and demanded that I clean HIS toilet, because only men can be in leadership, and all men have the headship over all women, then I'm sure that I would refuse. Now Paul says that he does not allow a woman-wife to teach or usurp authority over her husband, because doing so would overthrow the headship of her husband. For example, if I would get out of unity with my husband, and go off on my own on a tangent somewhere - say decide I would go to the Amazon to teach the headhunters, when he did not think that was wise, I would be violating our relationship and his headship. By the same token, if I were to presume that because God has called me to teach, I should rebuke my husband publicly or berate his intelligence or make fun of his opinions - then I would also be usurping his authority. Nor do I attempt to "correct" his theology, although we often have discussions about spiritual matters, respecting each other's opinions and advice about a broad variety of topics. I have known women who thought they were spiritually superior to their husbands and behaved in this way. This is what I believe Paul was trying to prevent. We are also told to submit ourselves to the church leadership God has appointed over us. Another example: Suppose my pastor were to make a boo boo in his sermon, and I stood up and called his attention to it in a rude manner during the service. That would be out of order. However, if I were to go to him after the service and ask him about it in a humble manner, that would be appropriate behavior. |
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6 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37136 | ||
Overseer, continued. (Guess I was too long-winded last time, said I had too many characters).... However, Junias, who is the only female apostle mentioned in the New Testament to my knowledge, may have also been an overseer. Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. Junias is mentioned as being Paul's relative and outstanding among the apostles. The form of this name in Greek is female, Iounias (ee-oo-nee'-as), meaning "youthful". Junias was imprisoned with Paul at one time and had become a believer before he did. Andronicus is probably her husband or brother, as male and female names usually were not linked in the Bible unless they were married or related. In Greek, the office of bishop or overseer is episkopos (ep-is'-kop-os), meaning "1) an overseer 1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent 1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church" [Strong's Concordance]. There aren't any women specifically called overseers or bishops in the New Testament, but the language used for Andronicus and Junias, both apostles, suggests that they might have been also overseers. The Greek word translated in the NIV as "outstanding" is episemos (ep-is'-ay-mos) meaning 1, of note, having a mark on it, marked, stamped, coined, marked in a good sense, of note, illustrious. This is translated "of note among" (YLT, KJV, KJ21 and NKJV), "notable among" (HNV), "respected among" (NLT), "held in high esteem" (Amplified), "distinguished among" (Catholic, 1941), and "outstanding among" (NIV and NASB) the apostles, which may suggest that they held the position of overseers or bishops as well. [I didn't realize until I got my password via email that I was supposed to include my copyright for articles previously published online, so here it is: c2001, www.theopenheart.org] |
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7 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37135 | ||
The office of an overseer-bishop-episkopos is different from that of a pastor-poimen or a teacher-didaskalos, and I did not state that Priscilla was an overseer. According to my research, to pastor (Greek poimen, usually translated shepherd) means to tend a flock. Pastors are responsible for the day-to-day care of a group of believers, their spiritual guidance, feeding and protection with tender care and vigilant superintendence. Teachers, Greek didaskalos, are responsible to training believers in the Word and bringing understanding to them. Many Bible scholars believe that the office of pastor-teacher is one office, because in leading a group of people, teaching and guidance are both needed. Acts 18:26 clearly states that "... But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him [Apollos], THEY took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately", indicating that Priscilla was involved in the teaching of Apollos, an early church leader (one of the big three - Peter, Paul and Apollos mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1:12). As for sharing a shepherding role, in 1 Corinthians 16:19 Paul refers to "Aquila and Priscilla ... with the church that is in THEIR house." The early church did not meet in a church building as we have today, but met in the synagogue, or the temple (if they lived in Jerusalem), or from "house to house" (Acts 2:46, Acts 5:42). Now Paul, who did not waste words, but used them very precisely, could have said "Aquila … with the church in HIS house", but he made a point to include "AND Priscilla … with the church in THEIR house". I could be wrong, but I don't recall another church house mentioned as belonging to a couple. Peter's house is mentioned as a meeting place... but not as Peter and his wife's house (cf Acts 10). Philip the evangelist's house is mentioned in Acts as a meeting place, but his wife is not referenced (although his daughters were mentioned as prophets Acts 21:8-9). Paul also refers to another woman "Nympha and the church in her house" in Colossians 4:15 after mentioning the church brothers at Laodicea. Romans 16:3-5a Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. Greet also the church that meets at their house… In Romans 16:3, Paul calls both Priscilla and Aquila "my fellow workers in Christ Jesus". The Greek word for "fellow workers" or helpers is sunergos (soon-er-gos') and means a companion in work, a fellow worker, implying an equality of position. Paul also used this term to refer to: Urbanus (church leader) Romans 16:9; Timothy (a pastor) Romans 16:21 and 1 Thessalonians 3:2; Titus (a pastor) 2 Corinthians 8:23; Epaphroditus (an apostle) Philippians 2:25; Euodia, Syntyche, Clement (church leaders) Philippians 4:3; Justus (a Jewish church leader) Colossians 4:11; Timothy; Mark, Aristarchus, Demas and Luke (3 pastors and a physician, Demas later became an apostate 2 Timothy 4:10) Philemon 1:24. So Paul used the term "fellow workers" in referring to the early church leadership. In Romans 16:3, Paul again references "the church that meets at THEIR house". The word for "church" here is ekklesia (ek-klay-see'-ah), according to Strong's Concordance "an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting, a company of Christians, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake, and those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body". If you look at all the verses that reference this couple, Priscilla, the wife, is usually mentioned first, which is very unusual - and some scholars believe that this is either because she was the most beloved and memorable, or perhaps held the primary position in this church. Because of the language Paul uses in referring to Priscilla, I think it is indeed proper to accord her the title of co-pastor along with Aquila in their teaching and guidance of the church that met in THEIR home. |
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8 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37126 | ||
To the best of my knowledge, the personal pronoun "He" is always used in reference to the Holy Spirit. To say that God has a masculine or a feminine side is to anthropromorphize Him - that is, attempt to give Him human characteristics. But remember, we are made in HIS image... we must be careful not to re-create Him in ours. Having said that the only feminine characterization of God that I'm aware of in the Bible is Sophia - Wisdom - who is represented in the book of Proverbs as crying out in the streets for us to hear. But to take this analogy and make a feminine God out of it is not warranted in my opinion. The is also the image of a mother bird used to portray God's providential love and concern for us (Ps 91, Matthew 23:37, Luke 13:34) but again, to take this analogy to the point of calling God "her" is not Biblically accurate. |
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9 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37122 | ||
I'm not sure what you are asking - but discernment of spirits is a Gift of the Holy Spirit available to all believers - I believe with prayer and discernment we can all distinguish the good from the bad. If you are implying that women are more easily conned than men, I don't think that is true. | ||||||
10 | Gender distinction in the Kindom of God? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37049 | ||
Does "husband of one wife" disqualify women from being elders, deacons or bishops? I Timothy 2:12 "A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well." Etc. A sticking point with some who would not allow women in ministry is that they can't fulfill the requirment to be a "husband of one wife". It is interesting to note that a woman having multiple husbands was not a problem in the early church, it was (and is, even in the middle east) illegal for a woman to be married to multiple men at the same time. However, it was (and is) a common custom in the middle east for men to have multiple wives. Paul was setting a standard here to prohibit multiple wives (cf Matthew 19:3-12). A prohibition against multiple husbands was not needed. We know that Phoebe was a deacon, apparently unmarried, recommended by Paul, therefore this verse should not be an impediment to women in ministry. |
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11 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37047 | ||
You may not know, but SHE certainly will - the same way any man "knows" he is called into ministry. Not everyone gets knocked off their donkey on the road to Damascus, but God calls us all to Christ and reveals to us, after we confess our sins and accept Jesus as Savior and Lord, the path our life should take. We are all called into some kind of service, whether acknowledged as a "ministry" or not - the challenge is to seek God and find out what He wants us to do. I really don't worry too much about what God calls someone else to do, the question is, am I doing what I'm supposed to do? | ||||||
12 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37045 | ||
In context, Galatians 3:28 is talking about ALL believers being heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:26-29 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. At first glance, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with leadership or ministry, but what does Paul mean when he says "you all (male/female, slave/free, Jews/Greeks) are "SONS of God"? Remember in the 1st century world (and in many middle eastern nations today) daughters had no rights or value, and, except in rare instances (such as Job 42:15 allowing his daughters equality with his sons in inheritance) could not inherit property or position. Therefore, to be a "daughter of God" would not give women any status or hope of leadership. But we are ALL SONS - Paul certainly had a reason for driving that point home. And being on an equal level with males as SONS would open the way for female leadership, as well as leadership by slaves or Greeks in the church. |
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13 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37043 | ||
Chris you left out the most plausible scenario: a husband and wife pastoral team - just like Aquila and Priscilla - our New Testament example of true equality in Christ. | ||||||
14 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37039 | ||
"There is no room for debate here." OH? If women should NEVER speak up in church, why did Paul go so such lengths to explain HOW they should prophesy? I Corinthians 11:3-5 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. (and on to the 15th verse...) How did Priscilla and her husband Aquila teach Apollos in the church in their home if she didn't speak? Acts 18:26 He [Apollos] began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately. Romans 16:3-5a Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. Greet also the church that meets at their house... And how did a woman get to be an apostle (Junias) if she couldn't speak out in church? Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. And how could Phoebe be a deacon and take a message to the Church if she didn't speak up in church? Romans 16:1-2 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant [deacon, Greek diakonia] of the church in Cenchrea. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me. 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. In I Corinthians 11 and 14, the context is husbands and wives ("they should ask their husbands at home"). Men and women were separated in the public worship services of the day. Women, by and large, were uneducated, and wives were disrupting the service by asking their husbands questions out loud across the aisles. Paul didn't say, "let them remain in ignorance and shut up", but "let them learn with respectful quietness in church and save their questions for home and not interrupt the church service". But many people have used the 1 Timothy 2 passage to keep women from speaking in church AT ALL, which I do not believe was Paul's intention. He recognized Priscilla and Aquila as pastors of the church in their home, he recognized Phoebe as a deacon, he had many co-workers (sunergos, co-laborers on the same level) who were women, and recognized a woman as an apostle. He was the one who wrote the passage in I Corinthians 11 about how a woman should prophesy, that is speak aloud, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in public meetings. Should women be silent in the church? Yes, if they are out of order and disrupting the service. No, if they have been called by God into a position that requires speaking in the church, but they are to voluntarily be subject to their husbands and those in leadership above them in the church. |
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15 | God can use woman in the ministry? | Gal 3:28 | OldTimer | 37037 | ||
I Timothy 2:11-14 A woman [gyne] should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman [gyne] to teach or to have authority over a man [aner]; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman [gyne] who was deceived and became a sinner. (NIV) Ephesians 5:21-24 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives [gyne], submit to your husbands [aner] as to the Lord. For the husband [aner] is the head of the wife [gyne] as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives [gyne] should submit to their husbands [aner] in everything. (NIV) I disagree with your assessment as stated here: "The issue that prohibits women in leadership is unhangable [sic] due to the creation order. Adam was the head over Eve before the fall and after the fall, and men today are the head over women (Eph 5:22)." I do not dispute the headship of the husband over the wife - although what this means is debatable. But when you say that MEN today are the head over WOMEN, you are distorting scripture. The passages you quote refer to the husband/wife relationship specifically, not to male/female relationships in general and certainly not to leadership questions in general - only those that would place a wife over the headship of HER OWN husband. It is no accident that Paul refers to Adam and Eve, who were not only the first man and woman, but also the first husband and wife. The Greek word translated "man" in these verses is aner, the word translated "woman" is gyne - these words can also be translated husband/wife - the interpretation based on context. To take passages that clearly refer to the husband/wife relationship and make them apply to all male/female relationships and the topic of leadership in general is inaccurate. |
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