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Results from: Notes Author: Lookn4ward2Heavn Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209764 | ||
Note Finney's remarks below: "The vicarious suffering or atonement of Christ is a condition of justification, or of the pardon and acceptance of penitent sinners." "I regard the atonement of Christ as the necessary condition of safely manifesting the benevolence of God in the justification and salvation of sinners." "That Christ's sufferings, and especially His death, were vicarious, has been abundantly shown in treating the subject of atonement." It seems to me the Finney was not objecting to the death of Christ as the means of justification for sinners per se, but how the death of Christ is to be understood in relation to justifying sinners. |
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2 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209763 | ||
Your Note See ID#209575, which implies such strong opinion against Finney as to question the validity as a Christian. I am not putting anything into anyone's mouth. I am just asking the question to ascertain if the Tim's opinion is as strongly opposed to Finney as reflected in ID#209575 in order to have a clear understanding of his opinion to give a proper response. With all due respect, you may be reading to much in my postings. |
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3 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209759 | ||
John, I read the "Terms" and have found no place where I have violated them. However, if you read them and review some posts you may find such violations in areas like posting comments that contains known denominational biases, pushing certain religious or denominational bias, or fostering debates by challenging one to prove their position or attempting to prove their view as erroneous or heretical. Furthermore, I woulod think that to imply that one who professes Christ is not saved if he holds to certain views, is not consistent with Christian character as required under Terms. I think re-read the posts will demonstrate my point. In any case, as stated before, any action you take will be respected. |
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4 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209758 | ||
See ID #209715. For me to answer your request would foster debate. I am attempting to share my views and that not by attempting to prove others wrong. | ||||||
5 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209757 | ||
Please note, I am not the one was not the one who either started or fostered the debate; I was only sharing my views. Those who responded asserted challenged my position by advising me that I was in error. Again, I merely presented my views and made no judgments on another's. It would heve been more appropriate, if there is to be any objectivity nd fairness, that the warning should have includeded all the posters who responded with said judgmental comments (especially with respecftul menation of Doc). However, whether or not I agee, I respect whatever action you deem appropriate. |
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6 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209706 | ||
Tim, just a question: In your view, was Finney so far "out there" that he is to be judged as a heretic, a false teacher, and, as such, someone who is to be deemed not a believer in Jesus, not truly saved (which seems to be not only Doc's explicit opinion but the general consensus on this board)? | ||||||
7 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209703 | ||
WOS, I appreciate your concern as an appropriate demonstration of Christian character. However: 1. It is not appropriate to criticize what one admits to have no familiarity. 2. Even "fine people" are prone to error in one point of "sound doctrine" or another. 3. My conscience does not allow me to simply submit to the opinions of others merely because they are fine and well learned people. This does not indicate any lack of respect for them. 4. Having considered their comments and looked into the info provided, I have found nothing that would warrant a change of views with respect to the present discussion. I think, as believers, we all strive to know God as best we can. Differences abound, nevertheless, and we may need to loss some of our dogmatic-oriented tendencies in order to accommodate each other’s views in a way that maintains "the word of truth" in harmony with "love of the brethren"; and, if our faith in Christ is genuine, the latter won’t be practiced at the expense of the former and neither will the former be compromised because of the latter. Does that mean we ought to tolerate heresy? No. It does mean we ought need to understand what heresy is and make sure we possess enough love and grace in us to effectively combat it lest, however much we are holding to what we deem to be truth, we fall away into error. 1 John 5:2. |
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8 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209701 | ||
Maybe you can explain what you mean by "orthodox Christianity". As far as I can tell, there are Christian theologians, scholars, and historians who would disagree with such an assessment as here presented against Finney. |
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9 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209630 | ||
WOS: If you're "in know (sic) way familiar with Finney," how can you rightly and fairly conclude that the "heat" I'm taking "is probably rightly so"? | ||||||
10 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209629 | ||
John, please note: 1. I'm just wondering if you read Finney's works or just what others have quoted and said about Finney. No offense was intended. 2. Unfortunately, you have misconstrued the context of my statement. I presented my experience of what I believe, not as proof, but as an example (and only in answer to Doc's reference to his experiential). Nevertheless, we should admit that experience (to whatever extent) does play a role in what we believe. 3. In any case, even if I never met one whom I thought to be living a blameless life (Doc’s phrase is “moral perfection”), I would still believe it is possible because of how I’ve come to understand the Bible. 4. FYI: Your posting gives me impression that you're upset. |
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11 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209628 | ||
Doc, here is something to read over that might be of benefit to you: http://www.gospeltruth.net/1855OE/550829_injstice_chract.htm |
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12 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209570 | ||
Azure, I would need to know where in his writings is his rejection of "justification by faith" found. | ||||||
13 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209569 | ||
BradK, forgot to mention that your footnotes refered to the location of the quotes you cited but I do not know what sources Johnson or Warfield were influenced by to make their respective assessment. In addition, just so I understand, by "enough of Finney's 'Systematic Theology'," do you mean the whole thing itself, just snippets of his "Theology" here and there, or just what you gathered from others who have quoted him? |
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14 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209565 | ||
... | ||||||
15 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209563 | ||
Doc, The point is God used him (depending on whose record of history one believes) in bringing sinners to Christ despite his alleged theological errors. No one said he was worthy. |
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16 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209561 | ||
BradK, I do not know where Johnson or Warfield got their historical information from but it does not harmonize with the few both Christian and secular histories I have read. Again, as I've asked others, what works written by Finney have you read? |
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17 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209541 | ||
While the assessment so far on this board seems to be that Finney's theology was erred, nevertheless, he was used by God in quite amazing ways, and led many to Christ. Tim, which books written by Finney have you read? |
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18 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209527 | ||
Apparently God used him in a way that was inspiring (especially in the light of his alleged errors) and nothing less than amazing in order to lead many to salvation. StJohn, what have you read that was written by Finney? |
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19 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209516 | ||
First. Where did I alter, let alone give the meaning of righteousness? All already sinned; therefore, such a “moral perfection” as defined by you is, yes, I agree, impossible. And, if you add honest errors or the measuring of “where we are” in comparison to “where we should be” into the milieu, then, I agree, there is no perfection. However, I am not advocating a “heavenly perfection” or a “divine perfection” attainable in this life; nor a perfection per se, but living blamelessly or with a clear conscience before God and maintaining it to the day of one’s death. Second. (a) I fail to see how, in reading my post, you made that assessment that I am building doctrine on experience; and (b) I did not say anyone can arrive at a “sinless state” (cf. above). Third. (a) As a “new creation,” a believer ought no longer to see himself as being “totally depraved” or just plain depraved (2 Cor 5:17). (b) Excepting the Biblical witnesses, the “scholarly witnesses” is not a divinely infallible company. Fourth, I have great regard for “Wesley-Finney-Parham” (especially Finney although disappointed with Parham), but you seem to be assuming a greater attachment on my part to their teachings than is warranted. You seem to confuse the subjective with the objective when you mix the command that demands practical holiness (Heb 12:1f) with the “doctrine of imputation” that in turn confuses your argument (at least, for me). I’m not talking about betting one’s life on the human will but holding firm to the promises of God. Doc, with all due respect and with no intentions of offending, rather than responding specifically to the relevant points or questions posed in my posting, you seem to respond on the basis of assumptions based on whatever you are reading “between the lines” of my post. |
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20 | Can we live life without sinning? | Rom 6:12 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 209492 | ||
Maybe we all ought to agree on terms to define what we mean by "moral perfection". | ||||||
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