Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Notes Author: Alencon Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | language Jesus speak | NT general Archive 1 | Alencon | 118982 | ||
Oh yes, such an interesting exchange was incredibly refreshing and I appreciate your patience with me. It had me with reference material spread out all over the room. It was great. Thank you again. |
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2 | language Jesus speak | NT general Archive 1 | Alencon | 118951 | ||
Sigh, we are talking about two different dispersions. You are referring to the dispersion after the Roman sack of Jerusalem in 70 AD and I'm referring to the dispersion following the Babylonian conquest. Ptolemy was not only one of Alexander's generals he also founded a dynasty in Egypt. Cleopatra was a Ptolemy. According to Aristeas Ptolemy Philadelphus (c. 250 BC) commissioned the initial translation of the Pentateuch by 72 scholars (6 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel). As told by Aristeas, the 72 scholars worked on individual translations for 72 days and when they compared the results, the were all identical, thus demonstrating God's guidance in the translation (and no I don't believe the legend, chuckle). Perhaps I should try to explain why I find your observation so interesting. If one accepts that Jesus was the Son of God, then he could have quoted from any scripture he chose. As you point out, it would have made an enormous amount of sense for him to use whatever the person he was speaking to was familiar with. 90 percent of the empire was illiterate, but the priestly classes in Jeruselem were not. I have never heard that the Pharisees used the Septuagint (although of course it is possible), so in speaking to a Pharisee which scripture would Jesus use? If the Pharisee was ignorant of Hebrew, he would have used Greek, but if the Pharisee was learned in Hebrew, he would have used Hebrew. Now comes the hard part. The Gospels were written in Greek. It is very unlikely that the evangelists spoke Hebrew. If one accepts that they used sources rather than the Holy Spirit guiding every stroke of the pen, their only source for the OT quotations and prophesies would have been the Septuagint. As an inheritance we get things like the confusion over the translation of the word "almah" in Isaiah 7:14. Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Undeniably correct because the Septuagint translates the word as "parthenos" which means specifically a virgin in Greek. The KJV also translates the word in Isaiah 7:14 as "virgin." However some folks, including some Jewish scholars, believe a more accurate translation would have been "young woman." This is the translation found in the NRSV for Isaiah 7:14. This introduces a discrepency between Matthew 1:23 and Isaiah 7:14. Imagine a young man or woman, studying the scriptures for the first time and running into this. Now this isn't a quote of something Jesus said but a reference to a prophesy fulfilled by the Virgin Birth, but the point is related. If Jesus always quoted the scripture that the person he was speaking to was familier with, then the source of the quotes could be either the Septuagint or the original Hebrew scriptures. I agree this is a nit, but I find it an interesting nit. |
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3 | language Jesus speak | NT general Archive 1 | Alencon | 118906 | ||
Granted Aramaic and Greek were the common day to day languages, but I always thought that Hebrew was still taught in the Temples. True the knowledge of Hebrew had faded in the diaspora, thus the need for the Septuagint, but in Palestine? In Jeruselem at the site of the Temple? Didn't Ptolemy send to Palestine for the 72 scholars that translated the Torah into Greek in the first phase of the development of the Septuagint? I know that Hebrew was unused as a daily language until the establishment of Israel, but weren't Jews, and especially male Jews, taught at least enough Hebrew to study the scriptures and receive Bar Mitsvah? I just never considered the possibility that a Palestinian Jew like Jesus, or especially a Pharisee, as opposed to say an Alexandrian Jew, might have learned scripture from the Septuagint. When one considers that many of Jesus's quotations of scripture occur during a conversation with an Orthodox Pharisee, the idea just seems a little strange. I would have thought that Pharisees would have little or no respect for the Septuagint over the Hebrew scriptures especially given their preoccupation with the interpretation of the law. Of course I have no evidence one way or the other so I accept your information as something to be considered and, if possible, researched further. As I said, it is very interesting. |
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4 | Virgin birth and Jesus' identity | NT general Archive 1 | Alencon | 118831 | ||
Again you make an excellent point. There is no need to be timid with the truth. Thank you for your advice. | ||||||
5 | language Jesus speak | NT general Archive 1 | Alencon | 118828 | ||
Why would a Jew read the Septuagint rather than the Hebrew scriptures? I am aware than some of the NT quotes of the OT appear to have used the Septuagint as a source, but this is the first time I have seen that Jesus may have read the Septuagint himself. Very interesting. So you are saying that the sentence structure of the NT derives from what Jesus said rather than as the result of the Greek translation of his words? Even more interesting. Thank you for the insight. |
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6 | Did Jesus have brothers and sisters? | NT general Archive 1 | Alencon | 118824 | ||
True, the speculation about earlier children of Joseph has no basis. We are in agreement that your conclusion is the only biblically sound one. Unfortunately there probably were speculations about the legitimacy of Jesus. It is curious that he is never refered to by anyone as Jesus bar Joseph, which based upon the assumption that Joseph was his father, would have been normal 1st century Palistinian usage. Even Pilate, though he refers to Jesus bar Abbas does not say Jesus bar Joseph. Matthew 27:17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? [Jesus] Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ? Of course it may also simply be that the evangelists didn't bother to record the use of the name. |
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7 | Did Jesus have brothers and sisters? | NT general Archive 1 | Alencon | 118807 | ||
Hank, I didn't say they weren't the children of Mary simply that the bible didn't specifically state so (which to my knowledge it doesn't). I was just trying to be precise. I have seen some opinions that they may have been Joseph's children by an earlier marriage, thus the point that if they were younger then they had to be the children of Mary. Note that the words in Mark and Matthew are spoken by the townsfolk who would assume that Joseph was the father of Jesus. Anyway I agree that they were certainly the children of Mary but didn't want to answer with an opinion. |
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