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Results from: Notes Author: bronx hulk Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 92214 | ||
Radioman, You have some very interesting points here. I'd like to interject something not in a debating sense, but to see what your views are. In order for me to get your full answer, I'll need to give you how I view this. So it might sound like I'm attacking your understandings, but please brother, do not take it that way. I need to come to you with my full understanding so I can get yours. I hope you understand that. Here's what I've received from God on this matter: As you said the KJV in Is 45:7 states that "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the LORD do all these things." To me that very clearly says that God created evil. As for your understanding given about sin. I agree whole heartedly on what you said. However, I don't think that sin and evil are the same thing. Sin is a transgression of the law. Evil (to me) is a state of being. i.e. Satan is evil. Further example: I sin and get drunk. Was I being evil? Did I have an evil heart? Not from how I view evil. Would I be evil if I delibrately tempted my brother into getting drunk, just so he would transgress? Yes, that would be evil. You quoted James 1:13 and 1 John 1:5. I don't feel that these scriptures override Is 45:7. They are simply giving a description of God. "Cannot be tempted by evil and does not tempt anyone" only means that evil has no power over Him and that He Himself will not try to get someone to transgress by tempting them. However, Evil, His creation, would tempt someone. "In Him there is no darkness" Still does not prove that He couldn't create evil. This just tells me that He Himself is not evil, but still could create it to serve His purpose. 1 Corin 14:33 says God is not the author of confusion. Again, I would have to say that Evil and Confusion are not the same. Evil is perfectly understandable if you gain enough wisdom. I'm not confused by evil or evil motives at all. They make perfect sense to me when I look at them from a spiritual mind. Not being the author of confusion means that God would not try to do anything that would be contradictary by any means. For example, put something in the Word that contradicts something else in the Word. Like saying that Jesus was a jew in one scripture and a muslim in another. Calamity is a form of confusion as far as I'm concerned. So how could you say the NAS bible's translation of IS 45:7 is any clearer? To me, that's a contradiction in scripture. How could He create calamity, but yet not be the author of confusion? I'm not going to get into different bible translations now, maybe at another time. Evil serves God, that is for sure. If Evil tempts people and God does not, the God would need something to do His "dirty work" so to speak. Consider this: God could have created us to be like robots to serve Him. But He didn't because He wanted our choice to serve Him be proof that we love Him. If there was no tempter (evil) then we wouldn't be faced with choices to serve Him or serve sin. Or sin wouldn't have a driver or method of pressure, if that makes sense to you. So God needed evil for His eternal plan. And as far as Genesis goes and "God saw that it was good"... That was the earth. The heaven mentioned is the atmosphere here all the way to outer space. Not the heaven where God is. That is a different heaven. God's Heaven was already created by this time. So was evil. So yes, the earth that He created WAS good. I still don't think that overrides IS 45:7. He created alot of good things. But He also created evil, just not in Gen 1. |
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2 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 92309 | ||
I think the problem I'm having understanding this is I'm not defining evil the same way as you and RM2. When God said He created evil, I think that means that He created Lucifer knowing full well that Lucifer would rise up against Him. Now I could be wrong about this, but doesn't it say somewhere in the word that God created the Angels to serve Him? That they don't have a choice in the matter? Heb 1:6 maybe? If He did that, then how could have Lucifer risen up against Him? The only explanation I could give is that He created Lucifer to do exactly what he did. Hence, created evil. Do you see where I'm hung up on this whole thing? Just like God created Pharoah just so He could use Pharoah to display his power Rom 9:17. Wasn't Pharaoh evil? Did not God create him for His good purpose? Now I'm not saying by any means that God is evil or immoral for doing that. God is God and can do what He wants. Our small minds cannot question His motives or reasons. We cannot or must not. We must accept what He does and that is that. That's why I'm fully comfortable in saying that God could have created evil while still being holy and perfect. God murdered, God destroyed, God tortured (plagues on Egypt). God has done many things that would seem wrong if you look at it from a carnal mind. Like I said in the beginning. It might just be the way we are defining evil that is separating our understandings. What do you think? And thank you for taking the time to study this issue with me. With the love of Christ, Sal |
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3 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 92329 | ||
RM2, I hear what you're saying. But I haven't found anything else that disputes that verse. I looked at the ones you listed and I couldn't see how they dealt with this topic. I did look in humbleness, not trying to automatically dismiss them because of what I've received for myself. Honestly, how could you argue against Is 45:7? Are we to assume that it doesn't mean what it says? You are right in saying that if I stick to one translation, it will be hard to be convinced otherwise. How many bibles are we supposed to use to get the translation that we feel is right? Everything in the KJV makes perfect sense to me and I've never found a contradiction. Are you not also doing the same thing by using your translation? So with that being said, let's put that aside. Can you comment on the other things I said in the last post? I'm really interested in what you have to say regarding the understandings I gave. I don't take things personally. I only want to find out the truth. I'm not in this for myself, but for God. So I'm not offended. I hope you are not either. All that matters to me is that our hearts are in it for God. That seems like the case to me. This topic does not "hinge on salvation" so it doesn't matter who is right here. I think this is a way to really search the scriptures deeper. You have already made me do that greatly. So your comments have helped me for sure. That's why I would like to see what you have regarding the other comments I made. If you don't want to go any further, that's fine. I'm having a great time studying this with you. God bless always, Sal |
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4 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 92630 | ||
Thank God for you! I'm glad that you took the time to answer the questions. You make alot of sense. Curtman gave a good answer to the different bible translations that I never thought about. I have one other question that was pointed out to me that I didn't even think of. When God placed the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil in the garden, that was before any transgression was made. When they ate the fruit, that's when they knew what evil was. Wasn't it God's tree that He made and put in the garden of Eden? Do you see where I'm going with this? Let me know what you think about that. I hope you don't think I'm beating a dead horse. I'm the type of person that is not satisfied until I get every last bit out of the Word. This has been an awesome study. Alot has come out of it. It branched out into different things and I think has really enriched my understandings in many areas. Thank you so much for your dilligence! I need good interaction with strong saints!! Be blessed my brother!! Yours in Christ, Sal |
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5 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 92632 | ||
Yes, I am hung up on one verse for this reason: I believe that God's Word does not contradict itself in any way. That verse, in the KJV, is cut and dry. It doesn't leave room for any other understanding, in my mind anyway. I do believe that you need to get the 360 understanding and I have been studying the Word for almost 10 years and have not found anything that could override that particular verse. All of you have made good points and I can understand where you're coming from. I do feel that sin is a result of our choice rather than God's doing. But I still do not believe that sin and evil are the same. My main idea is that God created Lucifer. Lucifer became evil and is the father of evil. Wheather God intended it to happen or not, is beyond my small mind to comprehend. I would lean toward that He did intend for it to happen since God knows everything and never makes mistakes. But I would never teach that as a doctrine. But wheather He intended it to happen or not, He is the creator of everything and took responsibility for it. Can you see where my understanding stems from? I understand in Rom 7 how the law brought about sin, but the law is not sinful. Evil used the law against us. My view is that Evil is the temptor, the deceiver, the pressure. (Evil is Satan). Evil tries to get us to sin. I am not evil if I sin, but I am evil if I try to make someone else sin. That is my understanding. I think that the important thing here is that no matter who is right, we all understand that God is GOOD! I do not by any means say that God is wrong even if I feel that He created evil. It's important to me that everyone understands that. Let me know what you think. What part of Brooklyn? I have an uncle that lives by Oceanside pkwy. Your brother, Sal |
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6 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 92730 | ||
Hey Curtman, How are you? I'm blessed. I gave a brief comment on that verse in my post dated 8/6/03 10:17am. The way I view it is that God does not tempt anyone, just like the scripture says. I do believe that God has created evil because he needed evil to work for Him. Since He Himself does not tempt someone, something would have to do it. That something would be evil. Did not God place the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden of Eden? That was there before any transgression at all. It was not until the fruit was eaten that they were aware of what evil was. Who put that knowledge in the fruit? Man certainly did not. How do you view this? I gotta go. Sorry if this isn't explained real well, I'm in a rush. Be blessed, Sal |
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7 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 93041 | ||
Hey Curtman, You bring up some very good points. Let me see if I can explain myself. Keep in mind that I do not by any means say that God is unjust for my position on this. God created the heavens and the earth in Gen 1. It was good. The tree of knowledge was not planted until Gen 2. So everything He created in Gen 1 WAS good. I do understand what you mean by saying it was our choice to become evil. But I also believe that God had an eternal plan from the beginning and knew all of this was going to happen. I believe He needed evil as part of His plan to carry it out. That is my belief, but I wouldn't teach that as doctrine because then I'd be saying that I understand God's eternal plan completely. Just as you have a hard time believing God wanted destruction to come to this world, I have a hard time believing that He didn't plan it this way. He knows everything. Now, if that is not the case, I can also look at it like this: God created everything that exists. Wheather He intended all of this to happen or not, it did. And in a roundabout way, He created it. And God, being the gentleman that He is, took responsibility for it. Did you see my post about God creating Lucifer? I think I have explained myself as best as I can. Everyone that has given me their understandings and scriptures still does not convince me that I am looking at this the wrong way. All the scriptures that were given does not solidly contest God creating evil. I would have to see something that is cut and dry. Justice as you mentioned seems wrong, in this context. But that's only if you are thinking in terms of man's justice. God's justice is beyond our judgement. How many times did God command the Israelites to destroy cities, man women and children? That seems unjust in our eyes to destroy children, but not in God's eyes. If you read all the posts on this carefully, you might find that no one has given me anything solid. Only theory on what they believe God's nature is and how He works. Have you read my belief on His plan on post #92214 in the last couple of paragraphs? Be blessed, Sal |
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8 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 93043 | ||
Hi Hank, Good to hear from you my brother! Wafer 1: Don't know, I'm not God. Rom 9:20-23. Why did He create man? Wafer 2: That is the eternal question isn't it? Can anyone answer that? I know that God intervenes when He sees it necessary. Prov 21:1, Gen 20:6. But as far as all the time, I don't know and I believe that that is an impossible question to answer. Anyone who does give a definate answer is foolishly assuming they know God's eternal plan in and out. Can anyone give me scriptures that support that God didn't create evil? So far no one has. Be blessed, Sal |
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9 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 93050 | ||
Emmaus, I agree. Let me change need to Use. He didn't need to make man either, but He did. I also agree that it is a mystery beyond our full apprehension. Thank you for saying that. That's what I've been trying to say, with the emphasis that my position is He did create it according to how I read His Word. I think everyone is against me because they think it is blasphemy to say God created evil. I have come to (not fully, but quite well) understand the nature of God and do not find it unlike Him to create an evil to use for His good purpose. Did He not create Satan and allow him to tempt us? Satan only has power because God allows him to have it. If God did not intend to use evil, then He would not have created His law and then allow Satan to tempt us against His law. The why's, I do not know. But this is so obvious, it is staring us all in the face. I don't understand why this is so hard for people to see. Especially after reading Romans 9, Is 45:7, and seeing that God placed the tree of knowledge of good AND evil in the garden. God is God and does what He wants and how He wants it. He is the Almighty, the Creator of ALL things, natures, and The All Powerful. Why would creating evil be beyond comprehension? It looks as if I will be all alone on this one, which is OK. If I am wrong, I pray that God reveals it to me. However, like I said, during this great study topic, I've gotten quotes from books, scriptures that do not apply to the topic and people's thoughts on this matter. That's all nice, but I go by the Word of God, not what people think, feel or believe. And books and quotes by great theologeans do not impress me. There are many things said by many different people. The Word of God is all that matters! So until someone can supply me with sound scripture, I will have to remain on my stand. I just don't think anyone will be able to give me scriptures that prove me wrong. Not because I am unwilling to humble myself (if you knew me, you would know that pride does not control me). But because there aren't any scriptures which will do so. Thank you for your input! It was completely true and accurate! Your brother, Sal |
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10 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 93124 | ||
Thanks Curtman. You have alot of wisdom and have explained yourself well in understanding my viewpoint. As a matter of fact, last night, I was looking over scripture after scripture on this. Funny you should bring up the tree and when it was planted. I pondered the possibility it was planted in Gen 1. However, I don't know for sure. I still haven't received anything definate yet. Genesis does flip flop back and forth alot. I also prayed last night about this asking God to show me if I am wrong. Because as a teacher, I do not ever want to be wrong on a matter of the Word of God. I do not want to give the wrong impression here. I know I probably sound forceful, but I am not saying I am 100 percent right on this matter. I do agree with you that God doesn't NEED evil. And that He used it. Emmaus showed my error in using "NEED". Poor choice of words on my part. I'm still praying and searching. I also saw how Radioman and Tim Moran described how sin is not created, it just is a result of the opposite of good. I also agree 100 percent with that. I think we can all see each others side of the coin now. At this point, it's come down to taking a stand on one of the sides, as we all have (Rom 14:5). I'm hung up on one point, which is, the difference between sin and evil, if there is one. I've come to the conclusion that sin and evil are two different things, but overlap each other. Example: I sin and get drunk. I was not being evil. I delibrately scheme and undermine things to tempt my brother into getting drunk. That was evil. When I look at Is 45:7, I do not read that God created sin. (That much, I can agree with everyone. Sin is definately a result of our choice to disobey the law of God.) I read that as God created Lucifer and allowed him to become evil. The thing that keeps me on my stand is that God could have destroyed Lucifer from the beginning, but chose not to. The way I understand it is Lucifer was cast down before the creation of man. I could be wrong here. If God knowing Lucifer would be evil, why didn't He destroy him then? I feel that He was planning on using Lucifer for His good purpose from the very beginning. Brother, you are right there with me in understanding me. And you are right to say too many Christians are following every other doctrine out there. "If you fall for anything, you will stand for nothing"! I just thank God that this topic does not bear anything on salvation. If it did, someone would be in trouble. All that in mind, this has been a very good study topic. To search the scriptures, humbly and deeply proves we all are trying our best for God (2 Tim 2:15). Oh, and by the way, you might not have intended this, but that scripture you listed (col 1:16), rooted me deeper in my stand on this topic. When it says principalities and powers, what was it referring to? Are they the same principalities and powers listed in Eph 6:12? I think so. Thanks for studying this with me. I have learned alot from this one, even if I haven't been persuaded by the masses :-) Your brother, Sal |
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11 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 93125 | ||
BradK, Thanks, I wrote down these scriptures. Give me some time to look them over. As far as wanting to hear my points, follow the study all the way up the chain and start at the first question. This got pretty in depth. Be forewarned, it will take a while!! It makes me tired just thinking about it :o) Sal |
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12 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 93127 | ||
Got em, thanks. It will take me a while to look them over, I got alot of responses to this. Plus I need to prepare to give the Word at church tomorrow. God bless, Sal |
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13 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 93291 | ||
Hey Curtman, I was going over this a little bit this weekend. I saw something on this verse that I didn't see before. It does say "create" evil, not created. Indicating a present/future tense. So I can see how this would mean He causes destruction. Destruction would be an ongoing thing, unlike evil which is a thing "made" one time and used over and over again. I was using Is 45:7 out of context. You all had the correct understanding of it. That is why I couldn't get my point across very well. I was using the wrong scriptures!! My whole point was about God's eternal plan, not about Him causing people to sin or putting immorality on the earth. I still think you might disagree here, but I do believe He intended for the devil to become what he is. Is 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" I see evil as Satan. Not as immorality. I think it's just a matter of perspective at this point. But I am fully convinced that God created everything, even the devil, to be the evil being that he is. I will change my wording from God created evil, to God created the devil to serve Him. I am fully persuaded on that. God bless, Sal |
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14 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 93591 | ||
How do you read Romans 9? Do you think that it could apply to this? |
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15 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 93712 | ||
Sorry, Verses 11-23. I bring that up just as you have assumed. Esau nor Pharaoh did not play a role in the aspect of being rejected until a certain point in time when God saw fit. Could that not also apply to Lucifer and the role that he plays in the grand scheme of things? I ask this question unfairly because, truth is, I don't think it could be convincingly answered on either side. It's just a question for discussion, not one of looking for an answer. Just like the question you asked about who forced me to accept Christ? Well, no one did, but after I did, it seemed like that was what I was put here to do--serve God. I look at Eph 1:3-11. It does talk about us being predestinated. Now, how much our free will plays a part in that, I don't know. Do you have any idea? Be blessed, Sal |
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16 | Who created evil? | Gen 3:1 | bronx hulk | 94307 | ||
Hey brother, Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you on this. I've been distracted. I also believe that there is a perfect will and a permissible will. You see that example when God decided to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and Abraham interceded and God was willing to grant Abraham his prayers. What you brought up about Pharoah does puzzle me, I admit. Because if he was created to be rebellious, then by being that way, he was actually serving God. I have to revert back to Romans 9:18-22. in vs. 19 it says, then why does He find fault if He is the one who had done this and no one can resist His will? Then it goes on to say that we cannot question God's motives. In vs. 22, it says that God shows His wrath through these vessels He creates that are "fitted to destruction" It also says that He longsuffers with them. Which tells me that He created them even though He knows that their very being will grieve Him, He creates them anyway for the reason in vs. 23 "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory". If you look in Prov 21:1 it says "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he TURNETH it whithersoever he will." If God really wanted to avoid all of the torment and plagues, He could have done that. But He wanted to show His power (Rom 9:22-23). The same thing applies to Lucifer, in my mind. If you read Is 46:10 it says, "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" The phrase "Declaring the end from the beginning" tells me that God meant for all this to happen in the first place. Now as far as James 1:13-16 goes, I see it like this... It is talking to the saints of God just as is the whole Word. The Word of God is not written for the world, but His children. This passage is saying that God will not set His CHILDREN up for failure. In vs. 12 it says "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." It is clearly talking to the Saints of God. We know the world cannot endure temptaion because they do not have the Spirit of God. Even if the world does endure some type of temptation, it certainly does not mean they will receive a crown of life. So I do not believe Pharaoh, Lucifer, or any other "vessel fitted for destruction" would fall under this protection in James 1:13-16. So, all in all, this is the conclusion that I get from these scriptures... That God knew exactly what He was doing, planned all this from the beginning and is allowing the gray areas to take their course. The gray areas are where free will, permissive will of God, and man's own faults come into play. Those things that do not interfere with God's eternal plan will be my definition of gray areas. But Lucifer would not be a gray area and definately part of His eternal plan. So, my conclusion on this whole study is this: Does evil (sin) exist? Of course Did God create sin? No, it just is because there is an opposite of good. Does evil (Satan) exist? Of course Did God create Lucifer? Yes And the 64,000 dollar question... Did God plan for him to become the epitomaeh of evil? I believe so, but I can see other's viewpoint if they don't think so. However, I cannot be persuaded in that direction. This study has been a blessing!! Take care, Sal |
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17 | power of unity? | Deut 32:30 | bronx hulk | 92705 | ||
Thanks, This might have been the one I'm thinking of. But I could have sworn that I read somewhere about casting out demons. Sal |
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18 | How was Joshua born? | Josh 24:15 | bronx hulk | 92205 | ||
This is great! I'm dying over here. Ken, I think Hank was joking like you were. Son of NONE meaning not even a mother or a father. I hope no one is offended by all this. Please saints. This is really funny, no one get angry with each other. The problem with written jokes is that you can't see the persons face or hear their tone of voice. No one meant any harm in their speech from what I'm reading. I needed a good laugh. Sal |
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19 | YOUNG MAN FELL ASLEEP DURING PREACHING | Jer 19:2 | bronx hulk | 92643 | ||
2 Kings 6:29 for the famine question. Acts 20:9 for the sleeper. |
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20 | i'm still not getting this | Matt 12:31 | bronx hulk | 91989 | ||
AO, True, but isn't sin and blasphemy two different things (Still keeping in mind that blasphemy is a sin.)? Blasphemy would be a specific type of sin, not sin in general. Brooklynne has an excellent question here. I wonder if it is even fully explainable. I never considered this, just figured I'll never blaspheme the Holy Ghost, so I never worried about it. Now I'm curious. I'm going to search the scriptures and see if I can come up with anything. Do you think you could expound on your answer some more? Because the way I read the scripture is that a repentant heart or not, blasphemy against the HG will not be forgiven. Christ never gave any implication to repentance from this sin. What are your thoughts on that? Yours in Christ, Sal |
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