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Results from: Answers On or After: Thu 12/31/70 Author: Sang_Phleg Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | do piercing | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 112906 | ||
Jlpangilinan: If a peircing is ok do you think it is ok to 65 ears old Christian to have it his/her belly and go to church? Do you think this really a christian attitude? Sang_Phleg: A piercing is not a Christian Attitude. Not having a piercing is NOT a Christian Attitude. My point is... I believe piercing has NOTHING to do with Christianity one way or the other. Jlpingilinan: You have to be a good example to mankind. Sang_Phleg: I absolutely agree with you. Yes. I simply would make the case that a piercing or the lack there of would do little if anything to acheive a good witness or to ruin your witness. I think the meat of being a good example for Christ in the world goes deeper than our outward appearance. Jlpingilinan: You mentioned in your comments that God judge us not in our appearrance but in hour hearts. So maybe it is also ok to go church naked? God will not judge us in appearance right? Sang_Phleg: I did not say that God judges us by our hearts and not our outward appearance. - GOD HIMSELF said that in 1 Samuel 16:7: "The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." - And what's more... He says in that verse also that MAN judges by outward appearance. Which of course, is what happens when people reject each other based upon whether they have piercings or not, don't you think? Now, my brother (or sister?) This is a silly thing to debate over. We can agree to disagree on this issue. We can do that because it is not an issue that is spelled out completely in the Bible, nor is it an issue that is essential to our salvation. In Him, Sang_Phleg |
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2 | Sang_Phleg, some questions for you. | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 112893 | ||
Thank you for welcoming me, Searcher. I appreciate the warmth! Wow. What awesome questions! I have a feeling... (by the insight revealed by the wording of your questions - and that you know to ask them at all) that you already have some knowledge here, or at least some beliefs about these issues... Am I being set up? *grin* Oh well... I love to talk about God and His Infinite Word, so I'll give you the answers I've learned anyway. They don't give you much keystroke room on this forum, and these are big questions with big answers, but I'll try to answer as best I can. GOD'S LAW: Handed down to the Israelites (to set them apart) by God through Moses. Found in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. They were to govern the behavior of those who belong to God. CHRIST'S LAW: Mat. 22:36-40 and 1 Cor 9:21 God the Father gave the law - God the Son (Christ) came to fulfill it. GRACE: Our "undeserved favor" from God. A gift given to us through the person of Jesus Christ. Made manifest in His atoning work on the cross. - We did not deserve to have Christ pay for our sins Himself, but God chose to do this for us anyway. Grace is a GIFT - it is not earned, nor can it be obtained any other way than through FAITH in Christ. RELATIONSHIP TO EACH OTHER(not sure exactly what you mean): The law shows us how much we need grace, because we canNOT keep the law in order to earn God by our works, therefore we realize when we try to approach God with our works - or by keeping the law - that we cannot do it, and that grace is the ONLY way. Grace, provided to us through Christ's death, was the way God made sure the Law would be fulfilled. - Romans 8:3 says this best. CAN THEY CO-EXIST OR BE SEPARATED(again, not sure what you mean exactly): Christ said he did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. (Mt. 5:17) If I understand your question correctly, It would be my opinion that this is how grace and the law co-exist - God fulfilled the law through grace. But we cannot earn God with the Law - we can only receive Him through Christ in grace (this is also how we live out our walks successfully with Him). In this way, the law and grace are separate. PURPOSE OF THE LAW: The laws of atonement were a picture of the Christ to help us to recognize what He did for us when we saw it. (What He would do to provide us with permanent atonement for sin). The law also shows us that we are completely unable to earn God by our own effort. It awakens our flesh and causes us to break it. That is human nature, and brings us to the realization that we need something other than the law. (Romans 7) ARE WE TOLD WE DON'T HAVE TO KEEP THE LAW?: Interesting question possibly with an interesting motive. -Here's MY answer: I am not under "The Law" any longer. Christ fulfilled that requirement for me. This means I cannot go to hell because I don't keep the law... Neither can I go to heaven simply because I managed to keep the law (no human could though) But, I agree with Paul - I AM under Christ's law - All the law and the prophets rest on 2 commandments from Christ: Love God with all your heart, mind and soul - and - Love your neighbor as yourself. (reference already given above) I willingly put myself there. Christ said "If you love me, do what I command" (Jn 14:15). Does this mean I'd no longer be saved if I did not keep Christ's law? I believe NO (Rom. 8:1)- but I'd wonder if someone was TRULY saved if they could didn't WANT to keep Christ's law. OLD TESTAMENT'S WORTH (huge, vague question, but I think I know what you mean): The Old Testament's worth is HUGE. Too huge to completely detail here. But the short - you must know God's story (and OUR'S) from the beginning, all the way through to the end. The OT contains messianic prophecy of Christ that we must know - as well as much, much more. It's worth is non-negotiable. *Shwew!* My brain needs a nap now. How'd I do? -Sang |
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3 | do piercing | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 112882 | ||
The greatest mistake with Scripture that the church has ever made (and continues to often make) is to take it out of context and to use it to suit their own thoughts, and their doctrine rather than God's doctrine. We must seek diligently to honor His Word in the way He intended it to be understood. Let me try to answer all of the objections together in this post. 1.) Lev. 21:5 says nothing about piercing, therefore, it cannot be used to answer the question of whether or not body piercing is a sin. It also canNOT be used to say that to be pierced is to be a "slave to the world" today. That is nonsense. However... since it was misused here, it needs explained. Lev. 21:5 refers to an ordinance set forth to the Levite Priests. They were not to engage in Pagan mourning practices - ie shaving their heads, cutting off a corner of their beards or cutting themselves. This was an ordinance that fit the OLD COVENANT, not the New covenant through Christ.- The old covenant was carried out by God through the atoning sacrifices the Levite priests would make for themselves and then for the people. People in this time did not shave their heads, shave off a corner of their beards, or cut their bodies on purpose UNLESS they were engaging in a pagan mourning ritual. That was the custom of the day. Therefore - for a Levitical priest to do any of these 3 things - it would mean he was declaring himself to be pagan. Could he then go before God's altar and present a sacrifice on behalf of the people? No. This Levitical ordinance made sense for the time. It makes NO sense today, since God did away with the Levitical system of sacrificial atonement when He sent Christ to be our priest FOREVER MORE through the priestly order of Melchizedek, not Levi. (Gen. 14:18-20 Psalm 110:4 Hebrews Chpts 5 through 7) HEB 7:11 - "If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?" Lev. 21 cannot be used to answer one way or another the issue of piercing. We must be true to Scripture. 2.) Jlpangilinan declared that going naked in church would be "THE SAME THING" as wearing a belly button piercing on your body if you are a Christian. - Do I really need to say this is false? 3.) EdB mentioned that tatooing (which the Bible DOES comment on, by the way) - would be an offense to God. I have to ask -- what if the tatoo is of Christ? Or the Cross? Or what if the tatoo is a Scripture printed out? When you consider that question, I think you have to decide that it is the INTENT and the CONTENT of the tatoo that may have a lot to do with whether it would affect your witness for Christ, don't you think? --- At any rate - as to whether it would offend God Himself - if a person is truly filled with God's Spirit because they have believed Christ's divinity and have accepted His gift of salvation through His payment on the cross for them. -- then when God looks upon that person, He sees only Christ. Did Christ's blood not pay for tatooed people? -- EdB - I think you may be surprised when you walk into Heaven only to find MANY perfect bodies which once bore tatooes during their existance here on earth. 3.) Matthew 5:13, 14 and 15 (again saying NOTHING about our bodily appearance)Cannot be used in this way either. This is telling us that if we lose our fervor and dedication for Christ - there will be nothing in us that gives off the flavor of Christ, thereby attracting non-christians and being useful to God. They also refer to God's light in us and how we can cover it up or dim it by not showing our love for Him by loving others and by not seeking to save the lost. - In this way we would hide God's light in us, and this would be very foolish. It would make us completely useless to God's kingdom work. - Useless for giving people God's flavor - useless for lighting the way for those who are lost. Simply that. You can study a commentary for yourself and find this out. It has NOTHING to do with our outward physical appearance! Tell me Mother Theresa would have been excluded from Heaven if she had a tatoo or a piercing (by the way, how do you know she didn't?). Tell me she would have been less effective for Christ. Tell me these things would be true of Martin Luther? Or any other truly saved Christian you can think of. -- I cannot see how you could make this argument Biblically. It will always confound me that we seek to put our own laws in God's mouth and weigh ourselves and others down with them. It confounded Paul too: "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" - Gal. 3:2-3 Can Christ's blood NOT cover a pierced or tatooed person? |
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4 | Is this a sin to do | Ex 21:6 | Sang_Phleg | 112826 | ||
Hi there Rugged - As far as I can tell from Scripture, and from what I know of God's character and about the work of Christ on the cross... I would say no, it is not a sin at all. Many who are confused by legalism (living as if they are still under the old law, instead of living as they should - which is under God's new covenant in the grace God provided us through grace)may say that it is a sin, but they would not be able to support that view with Scripture as far as I know. Exodus 21:5-6 is the only passage of Scripture I know of that says anything about body piercing (other than the piercing of Christ on the cross) at all, and I think it falls on the side of saying that piercing is NOT a sin. It is God Himself in this passage commanding that slave owners pierce a hole into the ears of the slaves they have that wish to remain with their masters though they could be freed. Would God command the Israelites to commit a sin? I cannot imagine why. However, you can ask yourself some questions. If you have piercings yourself: Do you feel they negatively affect your witness for Christ? Do you think that misunderstanding non-christians would be less likely to listen to the gospel from you because of your appearance? (Unfortunately, piercings do cause people to view you differently. Humans love to judge each other harshly). This is a question that you would have to take to God. He would be happy to give you wisdom here. If you felt that He was telling you specifically that you should take out your piercings (if you yourself have them), then I would encourage you to do that. God sometimes makes an individual's conscience more sensitive to a particular issue for His own divine reasons. For instance - He has done this with me about drinking alcohol. It is not because drinking is forbidden in the Bible (it is NOT). Only BEING DRUNK is forbidden in the Bible. -- But it is (I believe) because He has brought to me many non-christian alcoholics and He wants me to be His witness to them, and this requires me to not stumble them with my own drinking. Does that make sense? --- One more thing. - In my church (a church of 4,000 people) our youth group has many kids who have piercings, and I am not sure that it has hurt their witness overall. Has it ever chased away a non-christian or two? Possibly. I really do not know. But I know that some teens coming into our youth group have been drawn in by the fact that Christians can look "main stream" and yet live wholly for Christ. They're very surprised by our freedoms in Christ because of grace. Sometimes this surprising fact can convince them that they themselves can "do the Christian thing" too. Do you understand? That's my 2 cents. Go chat with God about this. Ask Him to enlighten your Spirit with what He would have YOU DO specifically about this issue (if you yourself have piercings). He is faithful to guide us. Remember always that Christ said LOVE is the greatest commandment. (Matthew 22:35-40)It is the state of your heart toward Him and others - and not your outward appearance - that He is MOST concerned with as a whole. (1st Samuel 16:7) Love to you in Him - Sang_Phleg |
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