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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Unanswered Bible Questions Author: nwells Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The question exists in Paul's Theology | Rom 9:18 | nwells | 138259 | ||
I would agree with you - that the vast majority of the Scripture narrative deals with God's wrath towards those who do evil. But I would argue - Romans is not a story or God speaking directly to a group of people that He is going to wipe out or punish but it is a book about God and the way God works. So if in Romans it says that, "...it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. " (Romans 9:16, NASB95) Then we should look at the rest of Scripture through this filter - That God is the reason things happen the way they do - not because men made a choice to do them, but that God wanted it that way. The argument that if there is one molecule outside of God's control than God is not God, rather that molecule is. Because that one molecule might prevent Jesus from coming back - therefore it would be more powerful than God and God is no longer God because the very definition of God is one who is in control of everything. I do not negate man's responsibility - I only am pointing out that if God has nothing to do with those being damned than the question Paul raises would never be raised - for if Pharaoh went to hell because he hardened his heart then we say that is justice - but Paul is saying that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and so he went to hell - and then he raises the question - "If God did it, why does Pharaoh go to hell?" Do you see my reasoning? The question exists in Paul's Theology - should it not come up in our own? |
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2 | Why does God still find fault? | Rom 9:18 | nwells | 138258 | ||
Freedom of the Will is from what I have read and heard a great book - I agree with your synopsys - We do what we desire most at the moment. I sin because I desire to sin more than I desire Christ. And when I don't sin, I do so because I desire Christ more than I desire sin. I totally agree that God must intervene for a person to be saved - my question was more along the lines of those who are not saved - those who are hardened: "What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; " (Romans 11:7, NASB95) I agree that God is unable to sin - but my question I guess is more about us as evangelicals protecting God from the problem of evil when, at least is seems that in Romans 9, Paul protects God in a different way - not by saying God let's evil men do what they do and so making them guilty - but that God is working, hardening them, making sure of their damnation - using them for His own Glory - and he is not guilty, but they are guilty for God can do anything He wants to with his clay - God has skill and knowlege that we do not have and so God does things we cannot understand. I am not advocating that God is guilty for our sins - but - that based on Paul's argument, that question should come up - Why does God still find fault? I guess it was more an observation - that most of the teaching in the church about God's role in hardening would never cause someone to ask why God still finds fault with us - rather we never ask that because we understand we did it, and God didn't make us do anything - but is that Biblical? If it is Biblical then why did Paul give us the question? |
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3 | More on God's role | Rom 9:18 | nwells | 138257 | ||
You are right when you say the Bible does say that Pharoah hardened his own heart as well as God hardened it. But I would point attention to this verse: "The Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. " (Exodus 4:21, NASB95) Many times people say, "God was able to harden Pharoah's heart becauase Pharoah did it first and so God just did it a little more but only because Pharoah did it first. If Pharoah had not hardened his heart first than God would not have been able to harden Pharoah's heart and Pharoah still be guilty for his sin." But I see one problem with that idea: God said He would harden Pharoah's heart from the very beginning and we can see God was at work in every hardening (whether by Pharoah or by God) as we see here: "Yet Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had said." (Exodus 7:13, NASB95) The key part is, "...as the Lord had said." So I grant that Pharoah hardened his own heart, but I also see that God was behind the whole situation - Pharoah had a hard heart because God willed him to have a hard heart. Thus comes again the question that is raise not by me - but by Paul in his writing: "You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” " (Romans 9:19, NASB95) Remember this is not my own question - but I would say that - if Pharoah hardened his own heart, apart from God, meaning that God only hardened Pharoah's heart AFTER Pharoah had made the choice that this question cannot be raised - because Pharoah earned it - Pharoah earned the Judgement of God. But the question is not - "Hey, why does Pharoah get what he deserves?" The question given is, "Hey, why does God find anything wrong in Pharoah, because God was the one who hardend his heart?" So I guess what I am wondering is if any one else sees the connection or if I am alone in my thinking. |
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4 | Does God "pass-over" or does He "harden" | Rom 9:18 | nwells | 138239 | ||
For your consideration: I wanted to ask a question about the understanding of God’s giving of mercy and God’s hardening with a view to this verse: "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." (Romans 9:18, NASB95) I have heard people say this - referring to what is said in verse 13 (that God loved Jacob but hated Esau, not based on their work, but based on God’s choice) that they rest in the fact that their belief system is correct because of the question that always pops up. If God did actually choose to love Jacob and to hate Esau unconditionally - that is not based on anything they did or would do but wholly on God’s good pleasure then we say, “Hey, God can’t do that because that’s not fair!”, which is the exact same question the Apostle Paul gives in saying: "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!" (Romans 9:14, NASB95). If God chooses one just because he wants to we feel it would not be just because, for example in this situation, no matter what Esau did God would not love him because God had already chosen to love Jacob and hate Esau and so basically Esau had no hope - and so we say - HEY THAT’S NOT FAIR! Does that make sense? I am not going to go into the depravity of man here - though I do believe man is fallen and has no ability to come to Christ on his own - as Christ said - believing is not our work but God’s, "Jesus answered and said to them, “ This is the work of God , that you believe in Him whom He has sent .” " (John 6:29, NASB95) And farther: "“ No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day . " (John 6:44, NASB95) Paul then expands on his argument in verse 18: "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." (Romans 9:18, NASB95) This is why God is not unjust - I won’t talk about why God is not unjust long - only to say if there are two criminals sentenced to death and a governor pardons one, the governor is not unjust but is merciful - both deserved to die one received justice and the other received non-justice, that is , mercy. So God can show mercy to one and justice to another - but the word here that Paul uses is not justice - it is hardens. Many would say this hardening referred to is a “passing over” by God (which I think is a very good use of words since they are borrowing words from the Exodus story of which Paul refers to in talking about Pharoah). But if that is the case - that God passes over some (passive) and shows mercy to others (active) then there is no question to raise against this position - all we need to think about is whether or not God is fair and we already know He is beyond any doubt. But there is a question raised by Paul - because he knew his readers would have a question for him - because they understood the word was not “pass over” but “hardens”. The question is this: "You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” " (Romans 9:19, NASB95) To restate - If God hardens, making sure those who He has not shown mercy to go to hell (meaning that God commands them to follow but then actively causes them not to follow) and then on the flip side makes sure that those He has chosen to have mercy on go to heaven by actively working in their lives to make them follow His Word then this question comes - WHY DOES ANYONE GO TO HELL? HOW CAN GOD JUDGE ME, OR ANYONE FOR THAT FACT BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONE THAT MADE ME DO WHAT I DID. I SINNED BECAUSE HE MADE ME DO IT - OR I BELIEVED BECAUSE HE MADE ME DO IT. Does that make sense? That question does not even enter the mind if in fact God “passes over” people - is that not true? Tell me what you think - Does God pass over (passive) or does God harden (active)? |
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