Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Unanswered Bible Questions Author: Andy S. Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Interpret John 8:24 | John 8:24 | Andy S. | 234539 | ||
Hey Tim, Wow, it took a long time but we finally see eye to eye one one thing. I agree, I will never be able to understand our infinite God. I don't know why we would have to meet face to face. I think you can be much clearer through e-mailing because you have a delete button if you want to take anything back that you have written. We have been talking about the truth of the gospel and since the gospel is simple it should be easy to give a clear answer. You said there is not a long checklist of doctrine that one must believe in order to be saved. Your checklist is longer than mine my friend because of how you interpret John 8:24. Wait just a second. I can't believe I have to ask you this again but how do you interpret John 8:24. I said we had to slow down for BradK but now we have to slow down for my sake. I promised BradK you are "well-rounded" but now I'm not so sure. Your going to really have to explain yourself. You said you disagree with my former pastor's understanding of John 8:24. Let me put you in a hypothetical scenario. You are having a Bible Study at a coffee shop with my former Pastor and you guys agree that Jesus is claiming to be Jehovah through these "I am" statements in John chapter 8. And my former pastor says, "People will "die in their sins" if they don't believe Jesus is co-equal, co-eternal and con-substantial (one being) with the person of Jehovah. If Jesus is claiming to be Jehovah then He is obviously claiming to be the "being" of Jehovah". And you respond, "Yes I agree that Jesus is claiming to be Jehovah in these verses but I disagree with you because....". Can you please complete this sentence for me? If you don't mind I'm going to send people over to this thread so we can just use one thread. I want to respond to your other thread but I would like this question answered and I'm going to use that thread to notify people we are now using this thread. So ignore your second e-mail. I just read your last sentence. I take it back, there are two things we have agreed on. "Truth is truth because it is true, not because everyone agrees with it." THAT'S THE TRUTH! God Bless and Happy Thanksgiving, Andy |
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2 | One thread? | John 8:24 | Andy S. | 234522 | ||
Hey Tim, The verses you gave me where the verb is translated as "I am" is not the same exact verb used in Exodus 3:14. The verb in these verses is ha-yi-ti (sorry, I'm not good with putting "accents" on my letters). It seems to me you have slowly gone from a position of Jesus definitely claiming the divine title of Yahweh to him just "alluding to it". So I think you definitely understand my position that participles and Titles don't mix. My God is an all-powerful God and if He wanted me to believe that Jesus was claiming the divine name of God then the Septuagint would read, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM (ego eimi) has sent me to you'". Instead the LXX reads, "He who is/the being (HO ON) has sent me to you". Or I would be convinced if John 8:58 read, "before Abraham was born, He who is/The being (HO ON). Tim, exact words are included in titles and titles are specific. Our president of the United States is not called president in some states and master in others. My all-powerful God would not allow there to be any question or controversy concerning a verse that deals with salvation (John 8:24). Especially if this is the only verse in the whole New Testament that supposedly makes it a requirement to believe Jesus is Yahweh. So I made my argument concerning this and I don't think there is much you can say to convince me otherwise unless you find the Septuagint Servetus is talking about that has "ego eimi" in the place of "ho on". Now let's look at the circumstantial evidence. You say Jesus is "alluding" to the Divine Title and my circumstiantial evidence is verse 25 when the Jews ask Him "Who are you?" This sure doesn't sound like Jesus is claiming the Divine Title because this would be a stupid question. Jesus obviously told them who He was by claiming the Title of Yahweh. Now let's look at your circumstantial evidence. You say the reaction of the Jewish leaders points to Jesus "alluding" to the Divine Title. You're using the word "alluding" so we can't say for sure he is claiming to be Yahweh but because the Jews picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy this seals the deal. But couldn't the Jews be stoning Him for claiming He is the Son of God. Take a look at John 19:7. The context of John chapter 8 is Jesus "alluding" to being the Son of God (8:16,18,19,28,38,40,42,49,54). Also, why did the Jews ask Him 2 chapters later, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly (John 10:24)". Why would they be asking this? Didn't Jesus claim He was Yahweh in 8:58? And Tim, don't you find it suspicious that the charge against Jesus at his Trial was that He was the Son of God and not the One True God incarnate? I also find it interesting that Iranaeus who was discipled by Polycarp who was discipled by John interpreted John 8:58 to just mean that Jesus existed before Abraham (ccel.org fragment LII). He said nothing that Jesus was claiming the Divine Title of Yahweh. And Tim, why did the council of Nicea last two months. Shouldn't the debate over Jesus' deity have lasted 2 minutes. Athanasius would have pointed to John 8:58 and said, "Debate is over"! I find it extremely interesting reading through the early church fathers (before 325 A.D.)on ccel.org that I find no evidence that Jesus claimed the Divine Name of Yahweh. I gave you a couple of things to think about. Hey Tim, it seems like our posts are overlapping into the same subject. You can respond to both of mine that I gave you but then would you like to just have one thread? God Bless and Happy Thanksgiving! Andy |
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3 | do you believe in binity? | John 8:24 | Andy S. | 234517 | ||
Hey Tim, I hope I didn't come off as sarcastic when I mentioned the fact that you were saved at the age of six. I love testimonies! I just heard Woodrool Kroll's (sorry for the spelling) testimony and he was saved at the age of 5. Tim, I believe in God and the supernatural and I truly do believe that you could be saved at the age of 6. It's been a long time but maybe I did know my address at the age of 6 but I certainly didn't know the nature of Jesus. I didn't know that the Son of God could also be God. I was probably wondering how Clark Kent could actually be Superman. I definitely didn't know at the age of 6 that I was a sinner in need of a savior. I'm curious though. You said you need to know the nature of Jesus in order to be saved. Did you know the entire nature of Jesus? Did you know of the Hypostatic Union and how He had two wills and natures? If you could understand this then your supernatural story is incredible! It is fascinating how you could understand that God loved and obeyed Himself that he sacrificed Himself to Himself in order to atone for the sins of mankind. Please let me know more. I love hearing testimonies! Also, did you discover God's plan of redemption on your own through reading parts of the Bible on your own or were you told the "gospel" by someone? My testimony goes as follows: I was an alcoholic and a pothead. I started going to church and was blessed with a pastor who preached repentence and daily reading of the Bible. I read the Bible and discovered that it is truly God's word and found His plan of redemption and accepted it. I knew I was a sinner in need of a savior and knew that Jesus was that savior. I accepted Him as my Lord and Savior and knew in my heart that He was the incarnate Son OF God. I immediately experienced conviction and by the grace of God I was freed from my bondage of sin that separated me from God. My pastor taught me to be a Berean. One problem! I never knew what the definition to the Trinity was before I was saved. I had no idea that Jesus was Yahweh. When my pastor got to John 8:24 in his verse by verse study I discovered, according to his understanding of this verse, that I was going to "die in my sins" and I immediately questioned my salvation. I worked out my salvation with "fear and trembling" and studied every aspect of this verse before I accepted or rejected my pastor's interpretation. I ended up rejecting his interpretation which landed me in my own home church. One thing I learned about Church history is that people will be persecuted or ostracized if you disagree with the majority. Nothing new is under the sun. Tim, I would love to address some of your points but we need to slow down for BradK. He is confused over the word Binity. By Binity I mean that the Father and Son are co-qequal, co-eternal, and con-substantial. you said that in John 8:24 that Jesus is claiming to be Jehovah. So is it fair to say that you believe that one will "die in their sins" if they don't believe that the Father and Son are co-equal, co-eternal and con-substantial (One being). I know there's no mention that one must understand this in order to be saved but you are saying that one must believe this right? In other words, believing that Jesus is the "being" of Jehovah is a requirement of belief according to your understanding of scripture. By the way, I gave DPMartin a chance to agree with you since you said you two are in agreement that Jesus is claiming in John 8:24 to be Jehovah. It didn't sound like he is in complete agreement with you. I didn't see anywhere in his post that Jesus is claiming to be Jehovah or that you will "die in your sins" if you don't think Jesus is Jehovah. His post is entitled "Andy I don't have an interpretation of...". Religion is defined as a specific set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects. You see why I say the Trinitarian Protestant Religion can't be entirely true. People within the religion cannot agree on the requirement of belief needed for salvation. The religion has turned into chasing the "right" gospel. God Bless, Andy |
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4 | Was the blind man God? | John 8:24 | Andy S. | 234493 | ||
Hey Tim, Thanks for all the scripture on what we are required to believe. It was like playing the game I-SPY the perversion. And I spied your perversion to the gospel only because I know your interpretation to John 8:24. Look at all the beautiful verses that tell people they are required to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And then there's John 8:24 that sticks out like a sore thumb. This is the only verse that supposedly requires a person to believe that Jesus is actually Yahweh Himself and not the Son of God. Isn't this suspicious to you Tim? And then you said in one of your posts that the context calls for this "I AM" to be a Divine title. Did you read the next verse (8:25). The response of the Jews screams the exact opposite of a Divine title when they ask "Who are you?" Why did they ask that? Didn't Jesus just tell them in verse 24 that He is Yahweh. Tim, I'm sorry but I have to call you out that you are perverting the gospel with your interpretation to John 8:24. Your adding to the gospel by requiring a person to believe in a Binity in order to be saved. You are adding to the doctrine of salvation with the wrong interpretation of John 8:24. I would even start at the foundation and make sure Exodus 3:14 (I am that I am) should even be translated that way. Are you going to let one controversial verse (John 8:24) which is built upon another ambiguous verse (Exodus 3:14) add to the truth of your gospel. This sure changes John 3:16 to read, For God so loved the world that He sent Himself. I don't think you're going to answer my question if the Trinitarian Protestant Church can be a true religion. Who am I kidding, I think I know the answer. The answer is NO! There could be partial truth to the religion but it's really about trying to find the right gospel within the Trinitarian Protestant religion. A religion can't be entirely true if people within the religion can't even agree on the requirement of belief needed for salvation. I hope this post is not too divisive but their is nothing more divisive than telling someone they will "die in their sins" because of a poor interpretation one way or another. Tim, this is important so let's feed off of one another and let's get the gospel right. So let me start with the first question. Did the blind man in John 9:9 claim he was God when he said the "Divine Name - I am" (ego eimi in greek) when saying he was the blind man. By the way, I would like to congratulate you on being saved at the age of six. That's awesome! I don't think I even new my phone number or address when I was six let alone know the nature of Jesus and that the Son of God can also be God. That's incredible! God Bless, Andy |
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5 | What's your interpretation DPMartin? | John 8:24 | Andy S. | 234492 | ||
Hey DPMartin, I loved your last response to the requirement of belief needed for salvation when I asked if one needs to believe in a Binity in order to be saved. Can you give your interpretation of John 8:24 then. Is Jesus claiming to be yahweh? If you believe He is then you have to believe in some aspect of the Trinity unless you will "die in your sins". I'm curious to know what's your interpretation. It sure doesn't seem to me that this "I AM" statement is a Divine title because the circumstantial evidence is the Jews asking him, "who are you" in verse 25. I'm curious of your interpretation to this verse. |
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6 | Tim, what's the gospel truth? | John 8:24 | Andy S. | 234466 | ||
Hey Tim, I have no idea what you mean by "you were baiting us". How did I know you wouldn't be the one to answer my question about the requirement of belief needed for salvation? However, Mr. Martin and you did disagree in your responses. If he would have agreed with you he would have said, "Yes, you do have to believe in a Binity because Jesus is saying in John 8:24 that you 'will die in your sins' if you don't belive that He is Yahweh (I AM)." Mr. Martin also never mentioned that I "must understand and accept the true nature of Jesus in order to be saved". If you read his post it sounds like I have to trust that Jesus is the Son of God and not Yahweh Himself. If Jesus is saying that He is Yahweh in John 8:24 then He is obviously saying that He is co-equal, co-eternal and con-substantial with the Father. Thus, if you believe this interpretation of John 8:24 then you must have to believe in at least a Binity in order to be saved. So, Mr. Martin would have said, "Yes, you have to believe in a Binity unless you will 'die in your sins'". Instead, He said that all I have to do is believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. You actually just admitted that some people disagree about the requirement of belief needed for salvation in your last post. You said, "MOST Christians feel that a full understanding of the Trinity is not necessary for salvation". WHAT? MOST? Shouldn't your sentence read, "ALL CHRISTIANS" or "NO CHRISTIANS"? So, In response to your first question, I couldn't have asked a more honest question in my life. I want to know how the Trinitarian religion can be true if a number of pastors disagree on the doctrine of salvation. WHAT GOSPEL IS TRUE? Shouldn't there be an exact formula revealed our Bibles of the exact requirement of belief needed for salvation. How do I witness to people? Do I tell people they will 'die in their sins' if they don't believe Jesus is Yahweh or do I tell people they will "die in their sins" if they don't think Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? My question remains: Can the Trinitarian Protestant religion even be true if scholars, theologians and pastors disagree on the requirement of belief needed for salvation? My agenda is seeking truth within the Trinitarian Protestant Religion? I hope you can help. God Bless, Andy |
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7 | Did I answer your question BradK? | John 8:24 | Andy S. | 234464 | ||
Sorry BradK, I am new to this forum and had no idea that question was 11 years old. You said that you are challenging my answer and I don't know what you are challenging. You can look at any Bible concordance and you will find that I am Who I am is not in the New Testament. The closest you will find is Paul saying "I am what I am" in 1 Corinthians 15:10. The Tetragrammaton (YHWH-Yahweh) is the Divine Name of God. The words translated "I am who I am" in our Bibles is the MEANING of the Divine Name Yahweh. Just look up Tetragrammaton on Wikipedia. The reason I said it is poorly translated as "I am who I am" is that it is a reach to translate the transliterated word hayah to "I am". Just go to BlueLetterBible.org and look up strongs #H1961. Out of 72 verses the transliterated word hayah is only translated as "I am" in 1 verse (Exodus 3:14). If you research the Tetragrammaton on the internet you will find that the meaning of Yahweh found in Exodus 3:14 has been variously interpreted. Some interpretations: "He Brings Into Existence Whatever Exists"; "I will be that which I now am"; "I will be that I will be"; "I will Become whatsoever I please"; "I am the Existing One"; "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be". The only reason I believe that our Bibles today translates the MEANING of Yahweh as "I am who I am" is because they want you to make a connection to Jesus' I am statements in John chapter 8. Just look at the Good News Bible translation at John 8:24 if you don't believe me. So BradK, I hope I answered your question "on what basis". I hope you research the Divine name of Yahweh. I think you will find the study of the name of Yahweh to be fascinating and I hope it won't be a "waste of your time". God Bless, Andy | ||||||
8 | Is your religion a true religion? | John 8:24 | Andy S. | 234448 | ||
The last two responses to John 8:24 is exactly what I expected from the Christian Community. Theologians, scholars and pastors disagree about this verse. The disagreement over this verse presents two different gospels. Will I "die in my sins" if I don't think Jesus is Jehovah or will I "die in my sins" if I don't think Jesus is the Son of God. Are some people adding to the gospel or are others eliminating a truth to the gospel by saying one must only believe that Jesus is the Son of God and not Jehovah. Some people believe that I must believe that Jesus is Jehovah unless I will "die in my sins" and others say that I only have to believe in the name of the "only begotten Son of God". Here's my question: Can the Trinitarian religion even be true if scholars, theologians and pastors disagree on the requirement of belief needed for salvation? | ||||||
9 | John 8:24 | John 8:24 | Andy S. | 234444 | ||
John 8:24 says, I will "die in my sins" if I don't believe that Jesus is "I AM" (title of God). Do I have to believe in at least a Binity (Father and Son co-equal, co-eternal and con-substantial) in order to be saved? I have heard that I don't have to believe in the Trinity to be saved but do I at least have to believe in a Binity? | ||||||
10 | die in your sins | John 8:24 | Andy S. | 234441 | ||
John 8:24 Jesus says, "you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I Am (he). Is this I Am a title (Yahweh) or a verb? | ||||||