Results 1 - 12 of 12
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226290 | ||
There are many things. First scripture tells us in Heaven there is not more tears no more mourning. If the scene was heaven and hell then those in heaven can see the torment of the those in Hell. Not a happy thought. And yes I agree that one day we will fully understand God's justice but that fact notwithstanding to view a formers loved one in constant agony would cause many to be sad. Second everything I read in scripture says the only way to heaven is by Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ hadn't made a way into heaven yet for Abraham, we know Abraham was righteous but righteousness itself is not the door into heaven. We know Abraham was looking for a Messiah to open that door. So I can't see any place in scripture that suggests the righteous dead of the Old Testament went to heaven until Christ made the way. Third Jesus said to the thief on cross, today you will be with me in paradise he did not say heaven. Paradise to the all that heard meant the definition I offered and not heaven. Fourth Hell/Hades is not the judgment of the unrighteous, the Lake of Fire is. Rev 20 Fifth and lastly, whether you want to accept it or not the listeners of the time had that view of Hades. They viewed Hades as the resting place for the dead. One side they believe the unrighteous dead awaited judgment and the other the righteous dead lived in paradise awaiting a Messiah to take them to heaven. That was what the listeners to Jesus' parable believed. Now for Jesus to repeat exactly what they believed in His parable would tend to confirm to them that they were correct would it not? Would Jesus allow such a misunderstanding? If their view of Hades was wrong I would imagine Jesus if he didn't want to correct it would have avoided the subject and used another example in His parable. Or Jesus would have said this is what you believe and it is wrong. Neither of these things happened. Jesus instead used a common teaching in his parable, to me that one thing more than anything else confirms to me that it is true. Now let us look at the theological ramifications of what I believe and what you believe. First you believe Jesus wasn't the only way into heaven that there was another way. Belief in the Messiah. I believe every good Jew believes in the Messiah, what they don't believe is that Jesus was the Messiah. So under your theology some Jews got in because the believed in the Messiah but not necessarily Jesus while other Jews didn't get in even though they believe in a Messiah but don't think Jesus was He. Isn’t that a conflict? Secondly if my view is correct there is absolutely no violation of Christian theology or of scripture. The righteous dead did have to await their Messiah to take them into the promised land (heaven) as first seen in the Exodus. And since the Messiah did come Paul’s teaching on being absent from the body and present with the Lord is fully realized. Now I answered you. Now tell me why you are so resistant to accepting this as a picture of Hades as painted by our Lord? |
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2 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226294 | ||
EdB, You said: "First you believe Jesus wasn't the only way into heaven that there was another way." It was very ungracious of you to put words such as these into my mouth. You have your wish, I'll comment on this thread no further. In Christ, Beja |
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3 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226296 | ||
Okay if I put words into your mouth I apologize. But I thought that is what you said. You said Abraham went to heaven not because Jesus died on the cross but because Abraham believed in the comming Messiah who would redeem him. Is that not correct? But aren't all real Jews looking for the Messiah? Their error was they rejected Jesus as that Messiah. But if a Jew dies today he still believes that the Messiah one day will come and lead him to heaven. Isn't that belief the exact belief you said got Abraham to heaven? I don't know you tell me. |
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4 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226297 | ||
EdB, How about you follow the words "you said" with an actual quote or please just don't do it with reference to me if you can't. In Christ, Beja |
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5 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226298 | ||
I'm sorry I really didn't mean to offend you. I think my original thoughts were correct we need to let this subject drop. Again I apologize, please forgive me my brother. Ed |
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6 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226301 | ||
EdB, I did what I ought to have done much sooner and I stepped away from the forum for some prayer. All is forgiven. However, I just ask that you will take care. Two posts in a row you stated that "I said" some things that are absolutely heretical. Namely that Abraham was saved apart from the cross of Christ and that there is some other way to salvation other than Christ. Both of these things I reject and if you look through my posts you will see that I never said either of them. Now I may have said some things which you believe start a train of thought that culminates in them, but never did I say any such thing. And I say now, I do not believe them nor do I believe my theology necessitates such views. Anyways, it is forgiven and from this point on with God's grace to help me no thought will be given to it again. Though I felt I should state it here so that you'd know what my feelings were offended over and more importantly so that any readers would know that I do not dare believe or teach such things. For my part I'm sorry as well, and God has certainly shown me that there are things I have done in the posts to help steer this thread to its current lack of edification for readers. In Christ, Beja |
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7 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226324 | ||
Beja I too stepped away in prayer and I think I know your heart. You are a scholar and gentleman and I'm truly sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. In my defense the theology I mistakenly thought you were holding to has been worming it's way into the church in the last couple of years. A few in the name of tolerance and inclusion have been trying say just the belief in a Messiah is enough. Their intent is to give Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Mormons, Bahai Temple and many others entrance into heaven. I have heard it taught by false teachers in both the church and on TV. One of my once favorite authors actually came out with the same idea in the last book of his I have or ever will again read. |
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8 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226326 | ||
EdB, I agree with you that what you described is a horrible heresy, and I'm glad I've seen no sign of it in my church. However, I do believe that Christ was truely held up to Old Testament believers, though only in types and shadows. Now that Christ has come, the types and shadows pointing to him are done away with. This would be a lengthy bible study indeed, but I point you to Colossians. Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. It says that these things were a shadow of what was to come, and what was to come was Christ. So I believe we err should we say that the Old Testament was not truely pointing towards Christ. However, we also stray into error if we suggest they continue their work of displaying Christ after he has come. So I do believe that believers pre-newtestament had a faith in the Messiah, and I believe it was on this basis they were justified before God. How could we argue that they were not justified prior to the incarnation when God clearly names Abraham righteous because he believed in Genesis 15? And in Romans 4, Paul clearly portrays this declaration of righteousness as his justification, even the forgiveness of his sins. Now again, I deny wholely that his justification before God was apart from Christ and his work on the cross. For Jesus himself said that Abraham saw his day. Joh 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." I do not mean to suggest that Abraham knew everything we do, things such as Christ's occupation as a carpenter, or even that he would be named Jesus, but clearly Abraham in Faith looked forward to see that God was bringing a redeemer to him, and how much more he knew would be a lengthy discussion. And I say that all forgiveness of sins that God has ever extended in any age was on the basis of the cross of Christ. I point to Romans for this. Rom 3:24-26 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. All past forgiveness was called due at the cross. So I boldly proclaim, while the OT saints did not have the clear revelation of Christ which we have today, they received forgiveness of sins through faith, and the forgiveness of their sins was purchased by the cross of Jesus Christ, and this not from some vague faith as in blindly trusting the good will of God, but faith in Jesus Christ the messiah as they trusted in promises from God for which Christ was the fulfillment and which was presented to them in past oracles of God through manifold means. And I deny entirely that this is the same as what the Jews do now in looking forward to some vague messiah that they imagine. For the pictures of Christ were only true in as much as they actually and truely pointed to Christ. Since Christ has now arrived there is nothing left in those old instituations, for regardless of whether their belief is sincere, the objects no longer truely point to any messiah to come because there is no messiah yet to come. For we are not judged or accepted on the sincerety of our faith, but the reliability of the object of our faith, Christ Jesus. In Christ, Beja |
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9 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226329 | ||
And I agree with you they were saved by faith in Messiah but I don't think they had access to God the Father in Heaven until Christ actually died on the cross. Their sins hadn't been washed from them by the blood of the Lamb. The Passover Lamb of God had not yet had his blood poured out. Certainly it was the New Covenant that was made and sealed by the Blood of Christ that provided their entrance into heaven. I truly believe that is what Psalms 68:18 is promising and Eph 4:8 which quoted Psalms 68 is confirming the fulfillment of. Jesus the victor over death, the FIRST resurrection, lead captivity (those held by death) captive (given to Him by God) to heaven. If my theology is correct on this point and I'm totally convinced it is, then the righteous dead that died before Christ had to reside somewhere. That somewhere was paradise or place described in Luke 16:19-31 as Abraham's bosom. They were saved they just had to await the Messiah to open the door through which they could enter. |
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10 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | DocTrinsograce | 226347 | ||
Dear Ed, In your hermeneutic, where were Enoch, Elijah, and Moses? Of the three, Moses is the only one who would be in the interim state. Was he taken from this intervening location for the Mount of Transfiguration appearance? (Just curious. I do not have an opinion regarding the interim state as a differing place as a function of time.) One of the three places where paradise is mentioned is in Revelation 2:7. Our risen Lord makes reference to the tree of life being in its midst. That reference connects paradise to Eden and the New Jerusalem. Do you deem them all to be the same place? In Him, Doc |
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11 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226350 | ||
Enoch, Elijah and Moses are exceptions rather than the rule. They are unique and as such can't be used to prove or disprove anything in regards to this discussion. they are what they are and proof God does make exceptions. As far as paradise. The Greek word is defined as a park or or a garden, with the implication of being very beautiful, peaceful and restful. I believe the genesis of this word is found in the human understanding of the Garden of Eden. In Luke 16 I believe the word is talking of specific place Abrahams bosom which the original hearers of this parable pictured as Eden like, extremely beautiful, restful and peaceful. In 2 Cor 12:4 not so much as specific place but rather as a description of the beautiful Eden like place where Paul found himself. Rev 2:7 as specific place The Garden of Eden where we know the Tree of Life is present. |
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12 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | DD4Truth | 226398 | ||
Hello EdB, I agree that Luke 16 is not a parable and is literal. Another verse to consider is Jn 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. " DD4Truth |
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