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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does Satan Exist Part III | Bible general Archive 3 | drbloor | 166183 | ||
PART III 5. He was the perfection of wisdom and beauty. Ezekiel 28:12. If we agree that Ezekiel 27 is a prophesy upon literal Tyre then this is clearly an echo of the language used in Ezekiel 27 and reinforces the notion that Ezekiel 28 is also a prophesy upon literal Tyre. This quote from Ezekiel 27 is clearly not about Satan: Ezekiel 27:3,4: "O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty. Thy borders are in the midst of the seas, thy builders have perfected thy beauty." Tyre was also at one time wise, as we have seen – Tyre had a great friendship with Israel, with David and with Solomon. Tyre helped to build the Temple of the Lord on Mount Zion. Surely this sets Tyre apart from many other nations as "full of wisdom"? Indeed, Hiram king of Tyre made peace and a league with King Solomon, whose most famous attribute was... Wisdom. 6. He fell through pride. Ezekiel 28:17. This may be true, in a manner of speaking, but let us examine Ezekiel 28 to discover the source of this pride: Ezekiel 28: 4,5. "With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches." Ezekiel 28:16. "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned." Ezekiel 28:17 "thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness" This "brightness" is clearly the "brightness" of "gold and silver", of "treasures" and "riches" which had been gained by "traffick" and "merchandise". The pride which is being talked about must be the pride of these monetary and physical possessions, none of which an angel in heaven would be concerned with, indeed not even Satan is supposed to be interested in these things but apparently with mens souls, power in heaven etc. It is only men who lust after gold and silver. And note Ezekiel 28:2 "yet thou art a man" – not an angel. Therefore, whoever fell through pride, it could not have been Satan. It would clearly make more sense, especially as this chapter is addressed to Tyre, that the great trading city of Tyre had accumulated these "riches" and "merchandise" and ESPECIALLY because they have already been specifically mentioned in Ezekiel 26:12 which you have to agree cannot possibly be about Satan. ------------------------------------- The original meaning of the word "Satan" in The Bible is "an adversary". Thus it is used to describe adversaries. This is, for example, why Jesus calls Peter a Satan, or "an adversary". This is why an obedient "angel of the LORD" is called Satan in Numbers 22:22. And this explains the apparent contradiction of 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 – "the anger of the LORD" is an adversary (or Satan) to Israel. To say anything else is to ignore the explicit statement of 2 Samuel 24:1 – that God moved David against Israel. If, for the sake of argument, God did this through Satan (which this verse does not say), then Satan is obediently doing the will of God; therefore Satan is an obedient angel and not a fallen one. Okay, and so much for all that. As I said at the start, this answer has (of necessity) been longer than I had thought. And the more I think about it, the longer it will grow, so I will sign off now. After one last question...! Q. If we understand angels to be direct servants of God, indeed that some, most likely all have been in the presence of God, then they must know at least as much about God as we do, and almost by definition far more than we do. We know that God is all powerful – immortal, omnipotent and omnipresent – therefore angels must know this as well. However, if Satan is an angel that rebelled and attempted to overthrow God, he must have believed that he had a chance of succeeding. Therefore angels must not believe that God is immortal and omnipotent. And this conclusion, and by extrapolation, a belief in Satan as a fallen angel, I would put to you, is blasphemous. That is the essence of why I find this belief so troubling. I hope and pray that this will give you some food for thought. If nothing else may it lead to a careful consideration of The Word of God, which "is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." Amen, Dr. B. |
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2 | Does Satan Exist Part III | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 166188 | ||
Satan could be insane. All of this notwithstanding, Revelation 20 connects this being, whom we call Satan, to the serpent in the garden, to the adversary of the Old Testament, to the Satan of the New, to the Devil that deceives. God's purposes will be served, no matter who you are, or what you do, God is Sovereign. Neither Hitler, nor Judas, nor the devil himself will subvert or prevent the purposes of God coming to pass. That's what it means to be both Sovereign and Omnipotent. Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | Does Satan Exist Part III | Bible general Archive 3 | Ocelot | 166190 | ||
Mark, I agree with you on the issue of insanity. Here’s another angle. Bear in mind that some of this is just theory. Lucifer’s downfall was based on PRIDE. And what other sin could cause a holy angel to fall? Pride is unlike all other sins. First, pride is a “hidden” sin, in that it is likely the hardest to detect by the person suffering from it. It may also be difficult for others to detect. Not that I’m saying God can’t detect it. But then, pride’s nature demands that when confronted about its very existence, pride would be offended. And if a rebuke was not taken with humility, pride would only tend to grow, not diminish. Pride is the most sinister of sins. Though not as “destructive” as some other sins, it is by the hardest sin to overcome. It declares, “I am in the right!”, “I am being mistreated!”. As for God’s Sovereignty and Omnipotence, God values freedom of choice. Hence the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Before the fall, there was only one spot on Earth where Adam and Eve were susceptible to sin. Only one spot on the entire planet where Satan had access to the first couple. And what’s more, God warned Adam and Eve about it. Yet He would not take from them their freedom of choice. I believe that the freedom of choice was given to the angels in heaven. Yet their perfection and closeness to God all but guaranteed that sin would never rear its ugly head. This is just my opinion, but I believe that the only chance sin had to enter heaven, was through pride. One would assume that the closer one was to God, the less likely to fall. The closer to perfection, the more “sin-proof” one was. But pride bypasses that. In fact, pride can use perfection to spawn itself, in that if someone takes their focus off God and looks at their own perfection, they suddenly say, “Hey, look at me. I’m perfect.” Ezek 28:17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. Ocelot P.S. The devil doesn’t care which ditch you fall into. If you worship him he likes that. If you disbelieve in him, he likes that just as well. |
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4 | Does Satan Exist Part III | Bible general Archive 3 | drbloor | 166198 | ||
Luke 20:36 "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels." Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death." I hope you see the point. If the wages of sin is death, and angels cannot die, then neither can they sin, or they would die, which they cannot do. At least, not according to Jesus. Shalom, Dr. B. |
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5 | Does Satan Exist Part III | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 166210 | ||
Matthew, also telling us about this same teaching, lets us know that Jesus was talking about the "angels of God in heaven", not the fallen angels. (Matt. 22:30) Jude tells us about angels that disobeyed, and will be judged. I suppose that is symbollic also? Mark |
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6 | Does Satan Exist Part III | Bible general Archive 3 | drbloor | 166289 | ||
If the fallen angels were once angels of God in heaven, then Matt 22:30 still applies. If the angels of God in heaven can became fallen angels and then die, then that means the angels of God in heaven CAN die - by sinning and falling. This is in direct contradiction to Christs teaching. This verse on its own smashes the myth of Satan. As for Jude, the word "angels" as you probably know is also used repeatedly of men as messengers. There is no reason to believe the messengers of Jude 1:6 are fallen angels, especially in the context of Jude as an exhortation against the false doctrine of ungodly men. Indeed, if these are the fallen angels and they have been reserved in chains until the judgement of the great day, then you contradict your own translation of Revelation 12, where they have got out of the chains and into heaven to have a war! Anyway... as you may or may not have seen I have mentioned in a post to CDBJ that I am going to quit doctrinal discussion, because I agree that it is not what the creators and moderators of this site intended. This is my last post of debate. Thanks for all your input throughout - it has been quite revealing! :) Dr. B. |
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