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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Age for baptism? | Bible general Archive 3 | SBoone | 157427 | ||
Hello Doc, Is there Biblical reference to 12 and 13 for Bar Mitzvah? My question is in regard to Baptism. Christ was baptized at the age of 27, but many Christian children are getting baptized at 8, 9, or 10. Would 12 or 13 be a good mark to say that a child who has not reached this age would not be baptized? God Bless, SBoone |
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2 | Age for baptism? | Bible general Archive 3 | Kepha | 157449 | ||
Jesus was baptized as the church understands the act, by John and at the age mentioned, yes....however we must remember that He was living and in full agreement with the Mosaiic Covenant and all that it taught. He also lived as a Hebrew, in a Hebraiic culture, so what we see happening at that time is not 'baptism' per se, rather a 'Mikvah', which is the root for our word baptism. Jesus was 'Mikvahed' many times, as were all observant Hebrew people. This is an act that is a status change, and done so often because of the frequent desire for people to experience a change of status before YHVH, and it's symbolized in the act of the baptism as we see it. We must not transfer church-age doctrine and theology onto the 1st. century culture, as that will totally confuse many people because much of what the church does today doesn't have it's roots in the Hebraiic roots of our faith. The age that you mentioned, 12 or 13, are traditionally the ages of the Bar (male) or Bat (female) Mitvah, because this is the age at which Ishmael was circumcised, together with his father Abraham. It's a very signficant time in a young person's life, in that they are considered to be entering into being a son or daughter of the Torah, or Scriptures. |
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3 | Age for baptism? | Bible general Archive 3 | DocTrinsograce | 157451 | ||
Dear Kepha, I agree with what you are saying. We've had the question before on the forum "Was John's baptism a Christian baptism?" The question is a bit non sequitur, as you have pointed out. However, I have always thought of John's baptism as the "proselyte baptism." In Jewish thought this form of baptism was a renunciation of one's former way of life and associations, in order to embrace the covenant. It marked the beginning of a new life for the proselyte. Now, this is my own thinking. I may be way off beam here. But after talking to the Rabbi at my local Aish Hatorah, I began to reason as follows: John was preaching something to the effect, "Israel has so abandoned the covenant of God that you who call yourselves Jews are no longer His people. Messiah is coming! Renounce your evil lives, prepare for His arrival. You must become a proselyte, for the way you have been living is like the goyim." This is one reason that the Pharisees were so offended, they knew exactly what he was saying to them and about them! Consequently, anyone submitting to John's baptism was affirming his repentance and commitment to submit to the commands of God. I offer the following Talmudic quote as evidence that John's baptism was the Rabbinic Baptism for the Proselyte. I'd appreciate any comments or corrections. I don't think this is a matter of dogma. I'm open to being shown a better interpretation. (By the way, most Reformed Baptist theologians see John's baptism as a Christian baptism. However, considering Apollos of Alexandria (Acts 18:25), and other comments of Luke, I just can't quite buy it.) In Him, Doc "He who wants to be a proselyte is not received right away. They say to him: 'Why do you want to be a proselyte? Have you not seen that this people is poorer and more oppressed and humiliated than all peoples? Troubles and trials come upon them, and they bury their sons and their sons' sons. They are killed on account of circumcision and immersion and all the rest of the commandments. And they do not behave in public like all the rest of the nations.' "If he says, 'I am not up to this!,' they dismiss him and he goes his own way. "If he takes this on himself, they lead him down to the place of immersion (beth tebilah). "They cover him with water around the place of his nakedness, and they tell him some of the details of the commandments... And they say good and comforting words to him: 'Happy are you! Who have you joined? Him who spoke and the world was! The world was created only for the sake of Israel. Only Israel is called 'sons of God' , and there is none beloved before God except Israel. All the words that we spoke to you we told you only to increase your reward!'" --Babylonian Talmud, Gerim 1:1-5 |
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4 | Age for baptism? | Bible general Archive 3 | Kepha | 157596 | ||
Thank you Doc, for your response and insight. There is much behind the Babylonian Talmud that must be understood, in it's conception and intent... and the Rabbi's interpretation and teaching on the Tanakh is interesting and insightful, yet always we must remember that their foundation is that of being in higher authority than 'the King and the Prophet', which are the Messiah Himself. Be that as it may, I still fully understand John's immersion of Yeshua to be a mikvah of status change.. not of turning away or repentance of a Truth in lifestyle considered lacking in any way... Yeshua (Jesus) wrote every letter of the 'law' as the church loves to call it, and lived it fully and perfectly... the extreme interpretation of the Pharisee's comes as man's ever-present desire to 'improve' on what God gives, hence the 1,200 or so 'commands' of Talmud concerning how to worship YHVH or observe Sabbath,when YHVH gave only two. We in the present era of 'church' must not transpose our mindset of 21st. Cent. thinking on 1st. Cent. hebraiic life, lest we become fully confused and lead ourselves into error. Baptism as the church practices it is a shadow of the mikvah, as it was practiced by the Hebrews. Jesus understood the formalities of the Hebrew people completely, and walked in those ways as well, to show indentification when these formalities did not conflict with Torah and Himself. John knew it too...... and John knew exactly what he was doing by enacting a mikvah on Jesus... wishing that he would be the one receiving a mikvah from Jesus instead. Oh, how awesome it would have been, to experience those days in person. |
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5 | Age for baptism? | Bible general Archive 3 | DocTrinsograce | 157621 | ||
Dear Kepha, Thank you for your comments. I agree with what you are saying. The challenge in sound exegetical technique is to understand the history and culture of the receptor peoples. Thank you for reminding us that this is useful, but not of paramount importance. Actually, I’m much happier being alive right now. The people who witnessed our Savior in His incarnation, did not have the intimacy that I now enjoy. Furthermore, they didn’t have the benefit of the work of the Holy Spirit. No, I’m happier right here where God has graciously and sovereignty placed me. :-) In Him, Doc |
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