Results 1 - 6 of 6
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | A possible translation error? (Lk 2:2) | Bible general Archive 2 | Theo-Minor | 126161 | ||
I have a question on a possible mistranslation due to possible misinterpretation of historical facts. Luke 2:2 This registering was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria. [Greek conjugation, numbered, with literal word by word translations]: 1 his 2 and 3 enrollment (an assessment by implication) 4 foremost/first 5 was caused to be 6 a leader 7 the 8 Syria (possibly “Tyre” from the root Tsor) 9 Quirinius “protos” (translated as "first" in Luke 2:2): foremost (in time, place, order or importance) “protos” “before” is used “of time or place” Lk 2:2 [And] this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria. [Current translation] Lk 2:2 And his [Augustus] enrollment was “prior to” Cyrenius being made a leader [governor] of Syria. [Reevaluated translation] Three great censuses; 28 BC, 8 BC, 14 AD (See the “Acts of Augustus”) Cyrenius made Governor of Syria in 8 AD (Approximately ten years after the death of Herod the Great, during which time Archelaus was in power (See Josephus, Antiquities 17.13.2), succeeded by Cyrenius (Antiquities 18.2.1)). Herod the Great died 1 BC, shortly after a lunar eclipse on Jan. 10th, 1 BCE (37-year reign from the second year of the 184th Olympiad [39 BCE], a little short of his 38th year (See Josephus, Antiquities 14.14.5 and Antiquities 17.8.1). Jesus was born before the death of Herod the Great (Matt 2:1), but within five years of the Census declaration which Augustus himself called a “lustrum,” which is a five year period. If the census took place during the governorship of Cyrenius (Approx. 8 AD), we are off by more than ten years. Jesus would have started his ministry when he was about 20-21 years old by that dating, and Herod would have been dead long since when Jesus was born. Further, Cyrenius also did a census of the Judea area to make an assessment of the assets there when he first came to power. This census and subsequent taxing spawned a fourth sect of Jews that were ultimately responsible for the war in 66-70 AD. My question is this: Is it possible that Luke is trying to express that the census during which Jesus was born was “not the one when Cyrenius became governor, which you all remember because of the troubles that sprung out of it, but the ‘one before that’ which was decreed by Augustus himself” Thereby necessitating a revised translation of the passage as noted above: Lk 2:2 And his [Augustus] enrollment was “prior to” Cyrenius being made a leader [governor] of Syria. [Reevaluated translation] Comments, questions, information? Theo-Minor |
||||||
2 | A possible translation error? (Lk 2:2) | Bible general Archive 2 | Leslie N | 126162 | ||
In Luke 2:2 the Greek word is prwth. What you call protos. This is the Greek of Luke 2:2 auth h apografh prwth egeneto hgemoneuontoV thV suriaV kurhniou. It probably will come out as english. The following manuscripts, Nestle, Alexandrian, Byzantine Majority and Stephens 1550TR all have (in english) prwth, this word appears in the following verses (I have searched for this word in the the mss mentioned above, not the Nestle) Mat 26:17 Mar 12:29 Mar 14:12 Mar 16:9 Luk 2:2 Eph 6:2 2Ti 4:16 Heb 8:7 Heb 9:1 Heb 9:2 Heb 9:15 Heb 9:18 Rev 4:1 Rev 20:5 Rev 20:6 Rev 21:1 in the Septuagint it appears in the following verses Gen 08:05 Exo 12:16 Lev 23:07 Lev 23:35 Lev 23:39 Lev 23:40 Num 07:12 Num 28:18 Num 28:18 Num 29:13 Deu 16:04 Jos 15:21 Jdg 20:22 1Sa 14:14 2Ch 03:03 2Ch 29:17 Neh 07:09 Dan 11:29 Mic 04:08 in the KJV, prwth is rendered first Mat 26:17 Mar 12:29 Mar 14:12 Mar 16:9 Luk 2:2 Eph 6:2 2Ti 4:16 Heb 8:7 Heb 9:1 Heb 9:2 Heb 9:15 Heb 9:18 Rev 4:1 Rev 20:5 Rev 20:6 Rev 21:1 Gen 08:05 Exo 12:16 Lev 23:07 Lev 23:35 Lev 23:39 Lev 23:40 Num 07:12 Num 28:18 Num 29:13 Deu 16:04 Jdg 20:22 1Sa 14:14 2Ch 03:03 Mic 04:08 former Dan 11:29 uttermost Jos 15:21 first (prwth)... first (prwtou) 2Ch 29:17 Neh 07:09 In the Septuagint Nehemiah chapter 7 has only 28 verses. I have a version of the Septuagint that is not sorted into chapters and verses, like our bibles. So I have not done Nehemiah yet. basically it means first, if the word could be used as prior to it would have to fit all the above verses. I can check the HOT renderings if you want. There is numerous greek words starting with prwt that is in the above mss also. Note, you asked for any information, so I gave it. I don't expect to be criticised for supplying it. This is my own work, in respect of any imperfections are my own, God never does imperfect work, so on that basis it needs checking, I could of made a mistake. It is comprehensive, not because I want to boast but because I believe in trying to do a good job and having all the facts available to make a full assessment. Mat 5:41 I did not plagarise it, I spend 10 hourse a day odd on studying the bible, Psa 1:1-2. If it is not in a presenation that you find agreeable you dont say so, because the person was being helpful, you cut and paste it and edit it yourself. And yes you can do whatever you want with it, you can copy it, send it to someone, sell it or whatever. If it is not what you wanted, you don't criticise, you just say thank you for your efforts and leave it at that. |
||||||
3 | A possible translation error? (Lk 2:2) | Bible general Archive 2 | Theo-Minor | 126177 | ||
Leslie ... It was a comprehensive answer for a comprehensive question. I DO appreciate your efforts. I have already apologized for my previously poor behavior, so accept it or not, and let's leave it at that. So, are you suggesting that it can only be translated as "first," or that it is usually translated that way? (Genuine question; no sarcasm intended). Can it be "before," indicating or denoting a "foremost" position or rendering of time? I recognize that it may often be used a certain way, but we have English words that are often used a certain way, but have alternate meanings under some circumstances. A rendering of "before" would certainly solve a big problem with the chronology of the birth according to the listed facts. Theo-Minor |
||||||
4 | A possible translation error? (Lk 2:2) | Bible general Archive 2 | Leslie N | 126184 | ||
can you get hold of a JFB or Gill commentary, a good programme it's free is called E-Sword, you can download it of the net. You knew there were 2 census's from Gill's commentary, it won't come up because of all the hashes and so on Luk 2:2 - And this taxing was first made,.... Or "this was the first enrolment, or taxing" in the Jewish nation; for there was another afterwards, when Judas the Galilean arose, and drew many after him, Act_5:38. |
||||||
5 | A possible translation error? (Lk 2:2) | Bible general Archive 2 | Theo-Minor | 126193 | ||
YES ... this is precisely what I'm talking about. The census would have been the census BEFORE Judas the Galilean, which is the one I mentioned. Cyrenius' census is the one that "started the trouble" with Judas, and I think Matthias is the name of the co-conspirator. This one was in the 8 ADish area. The census when Jesus was born was in the 8-3 BC area; the lustrum performed by Augustus during the reign of Herod the Great. I'm sure I can find that commentary, but you'd be doing me a favor if you just quote what it is you are wanting me to look at (within the bounds of reasonable size for this forum). Theo-Minor |
||||||
6 | A possible translation error? (Lk 2:2) | Bible general Archive 2 | Leslie N | 126269 | ||
from Robertson's commentary Luk 2:2 - The first enrolment ***apographe prote***. A definite allusion by Luke to a series of censuses instituted by Augustus, the second of which is mentioned by him in Act 5:37. This second one is described by Josephus and it was supposed by some that Luke confused the two. But Ramsay has shown that a periodical fourteen-year census in Egypt is given in dated papyri back to a.d. 20. The one in Act_5:37 would then be a.d. 6. This is in the time of Augustus. The first would then be b.c. 8 in Egypt. If it was delayed a couple of years in Palestine by Herod the Great for obvious reasons, that would make the birth of Christ about b.c. 6 which agrees with the other known data When Quirinius ***Kureniou***. Genitive absolute. Here again Luke has been attacked on the ground that Quirinius was only governor of Syria once and that was a.d. 6 as shown by Josephus ***Ant. XVIII. I.I***. But Ramsay has proven by inscriptions that Quirinius was twice in Syria and that Luke is correct here also. See summary of the facts in my Luke the Historian in the Light of Research, pp. 118-29. ________________________ from the ISBE But the Gospel is not free from attack. The chief matter in the Gospel of Luke which is challenged on historical grounds, apart from the birth-narratives, which some critics treat as legendary, is the census in Luk_2:1 ff. Critics, who in general have accepted Luke's veracity, have sometimes admitted that here he fell into error and confused the census under Quirinius in 6-7 AD when Quirinius came, after the banishment of Archelaus, to take a census and to collect taxes, much to the indignation of the Jews ***compare Act_5:37; Josephus, Ant, XVIII, i***. It was not known that Quirinius had been governor of Syria before this time, nor was there any other knowledge of a census under Augustus. The case against Luke seemed strong. But Ramsay ***Was Christ Born at Bethlehem? 227 ff.*** shows that the inscription at Tibur, as agreed by Mommsen and like authorities, shows that Quirinius "twice governed Syria as legatus of the divine Augustus." He was consul in 12 BC, so that the first mission was after that date. Ramsay shows also from the papyri that the 14-year cycle was used for the Roman census ***many census papers are known from 20 AD on***. He argues that the first one was instituted by Augustus in 8 BC. Herod, as a vassal king, would naturally be allowed to conduct it in the Jewish fashion, not the Roman, and it was probably delayed several years in the provinces. Thus once more Luke is vindicated in a remarkable way ________________________ from Easton's Dictionary Cyrenius the Grecized form of Quirinus. His full name was Publius Sulpicius Quirinus. Recent historical investigation has proved that Quirinus was governor of Cilicia, which was annexed to Syria at the time of our Lord's birth. Cilicia, which he ruled, being a province of Syria, he is called the governor, which he was de jure, of Syria. Some ten years afterwards he was appointed governor of Syria for the second time. During his tenure of office, at the time of our Lord's birth ***Luk_2:2***, a "taxing" ***R.V., "enrolment;" i.e., a registration*** of the people was "first made;" i.e., was made for the first time under his government. ***See TAXING.*** |
||||||