Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is Hell Burning Today? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 84411 | ||
Matt For 2000 years prior to this Abraham's bosom was a real place to the Jews. Their teaching was upon death they went to a place Sheol where their father Abraham awaited to receive them. They knew they didn't have access to heaven since their Messiah hadn't come yet so they viewed paradise as Abraham's bosom. Your right paradise is used paradise 3 places in the Bible, one referring to a place and two places describing heaven. You have heard people say 'this must be heaven' their not saying the place they are at is "Heaven". They are just using that expression to say this is better than any other place they have been to that point in their life. Once more the Jews knew Sheol as the holding place for the dead. Their teaching taught there was two sides. One Abraham's bosom a place for the righteous to reside until the Messiah came and the other for those the rejected any need for a Messiah. That was the common understanding, where and how it was first taught we have no idea, but this idea is clearly seen in Jewish literature/philosophy. Jesus then told the parable in Luke 16 and confirmed by this parable the exact understanding the Jews already had. Knowing this is what the Jews believed anyone would have to say Jesus confirmed their understanding. Now let's look why Jesus would do this. One it was a false understanding and Jesus wanted to further confuse the Jews that heard the parable. Then we would have to explain why Jesus would do such a thing. I have no answer and I don’t think you do either. Or the whole Jewish idea of Sheol was correct and Jesus used the parable to build on the existing foundation of understanding the Jews already had. As evidence of the later we have Eph 4:8 where it says Jesus lead captivity captive. What would be captivity? Death upon the death the spirit would be in the captivity of death by being confined in Sheol. Jesus then freed their spirit of the hold of Abraham's bosom and lead them captive to heaven. Also 1 Pet 3:19 tells us Jesus preached to the spirits in prison or captivity/Abraham's bosom. Now if your going to dispute this, you must give a logical reason why Jesus would tell a parable that clearly agreed with and confirmed the Jewish understanding of Sheol, an understanding which you say is not correct. As I have said before whoever gave you the idea you have about this parable simply did not understand Jewish teaching on death and Sheol since Jesus’ parable echoed Jewish understanding exactly. EdB |
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2 | Is Hell Burning Today? | Bible general Archive 1 | Mathew | 84445 | ||
EdB, Thank you for your time and your post. If I sound argumenative or hard headed at times I apologize. You have a good grasp on scripture and context, and I respect that. The questions that I ask are intended to help me see If what I beleive is correct, not to SHINE LIGHT OR WISDOM on anyone as some have posted back to me. I think Jesus spoke in parables to hide things from the wise and prudent,and then expounded on the meaning later with his desciples. However Jesus was trying to relate something that those who wanted to hear could hear. Let me explain what I was taught about the meaning of this parable. Who was the symbolic rich man? The Jews had been blessed above measure by a knowledge of God and his plan of salvation for all mankind. They had received "the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises." Romans 9:4. Only a Jew would pray to "Father Abraham," as we find the rich man doing later in the story. The JEWISH NATION was clearly represented by this character. By contrast, Lazarus symbolized all those people in spiritual poverty--the Gentiles--with whom the Israelites were to share their heritage. The words of Isaiah were well known to the Jews, "I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." Isaiah 49:6.Unfortunately, the Jews had not shared their spiritual wealth with the Gentiles at all. Instead, they considered them as "dogs" who would have to be satisfied with the spiritual crumbs falling from their masters' tables. The metaphor was known. Jesus had used it before, testing the faith of the Canaanite woman, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." She responded accordingly: "Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' tables." Matthew 15:26, 27. The rich Jews had hoarded the truth, and in so doing had corrupted themselves. Only moments before relating this parable, Jesus had rebuked the Pharisees for their spiritual conceit, "Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." Luke 16:15. What was to be the result of this terrible conceit? "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Luke 16:26. The Jews had enjoyed "the good life" while on earth but had done nothing to bless or enrich their neighbors. No further reward was due. "Woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger." Luke 6:24, 25. Conversely, the poor in spirit, symbolized by Lazarus, would inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Gentiles who hungered and thirsted after righteousness would be filled. The "dogs" and sinners, so despised by the self-righteous Pharisees, would enter heaven before they would, "Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you." Matthew 21:31. The parable concludes with the rich man begging for his brethren to be warned against sharing his fate. Asking Abraham to send Lazarus on this mission, he alleges that "if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent." Luke 16:30. Abraham replies, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Verse 31. The miracle of raising the real-life Lazarus from the dead soon afterwards confirmed the accuracy of Jesus' conclusion. One did rise from the dead, yet the brothers of the "rich man" did not repent. In fact, the Pharisees even plotted to kill Lazarus after his resurrection. His very life was a reminder to them of their own hypocrisy. |
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3 | Is Hell Burning Today? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 84448 | ||
Mathew Interesting story but without basis. God never commanded, or gave direction to the Jew to evangelize. Pagans that came to God did so after observing God's blessings, power, and might poured out on His people (Rahab in the book of Joshua). No where in the Old Testament do we see any attempt by God, by God's prophets, or by the children of Israel to reach out to others. Jesus himself show reluctance to share what he had with a non Jew in the parable you referred of the woman with a demon possessed daughter. Jesus at first refused her request but at her persistance saying even the dogs get the scraps caused Jesus to reconsider. Look at Paul's ministry at every town he went first to the Synagogues and only after suffering rejection there did he go to the Gentile. Like I said it is an interesting story but the main thing your forgetting is the example Jesus used of Sheol exactly fit the Jewish understanding of Sheol. Therefore the mystery of the parable wasn't Jesus' explanation of Sheol but the need to understand our treatment of others will effect our eternity. Jesus said it very clear, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". The parable also carried a masked prophecy, saying "you stiff necked Jews haven't beleived the prophets and even more you won't believe even after I return from grave." EdB |
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4 | Is Hell Burning Today? | Bible general Archive 1 | Mathew | 84459 | ||
EdB, Thank you for sharing all that you have with me on this leangthy subject. I truly understand were your coming from now. I feel I know enough on this subject to chose which one I feel fits the Bible the best now. You don't have to reply to this last comment of mine If you don't want. Another dilemma that arises with a literal interpretation of this story could be called "the mystery of the empty graves." If this is taken literally, apparently neither of the two leading characters spent very long in the grave--both being whisked away rather quickly to their respective places of reward. Their BODIES obviously came along, for we find the rich man lifting up his eyes, and desiring to have his tongue cooled by a drop of water from the finger of Lazarus who was resting, as we have seen, in Abraham's bosom. Enough graves have been exhumed in recent years to know that the BODIES of the deceased are carried neither to heaven or hell after burial. They finally turn to dust and await the resurrection. From these few examples, we begin to see that in this parable, Jesus was not trying to explain the PHYSICAL realities of the afterlife. Instead, He was referring to the unfaithfulness of the Jews regarding their assigned responsibility. As stewards of the special message of truth, they utterly failed to share it with the Gentiles, who were eager to hear it. In fact, the ENTIRE CHAPTER of Luke 16 is DEVOTED to the subject of STEWARDSHIP. And the other thing about this parable describing Hell and the after-life is that Sheol only means the grave. It never refurs to hell fire,or lake of fire."GAHENNA"however does.Which is not used in this parable. I can see what your saying about what Jewish writings have always said and beleived on this subject. It's just that they also thought they new when the Messiah would come to. Please don't take that last statement offensively. Thanks for helping in my groath,may your reward be in heaven for all the nuggets you have given me. Your friend, Matt |
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5 | Is Hell Burning Today? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 84462 | ||
Mathew Once again you ignore the fact we are both physical and spirit beings. In fact I like to think of us as spirit beings in earth suits. When the body dies or the earth suit gives out our spirit being is freed to move on. If we are trusting in Christ our spirit being will go directly into His presence, to await the resurrection of our earth suit which will be transformed into perfection. If on the other hand we die denying Christ our spirit awaits in Sheol the resurrection and judgement. In your examples above the writer has merely applied physical attributes to the spiritual realities for clarification as an aid to our understanding. Your statement that the Jews thought they knew when Jesus was coming is not completely correct. They did not know when the Messiah would come. Their problem with Jesus was they thought He would come as a conquering hero rather than a humble servant. They never realized the prophecies described two comings. One the Lamb of God that took away the sin of the world and the other the conquering leader that would bring a holy Judgement. Their problem wasn’t with Jesus’ timing it was with His demeanor. Had Jesus came, as He will in the second coming, as lightning flashing across the sky wielding the sword of righteousness they would have accepted Him. However since the world was in sin they would have been judged, what was needed was a redeemer hence Jesus first came to provide redemption. Praise God. EdB |
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6 | Is Hell Burning Today? | Bible general Archive 1 | Mathew | 84464 | ||
EdB, I absolutley agree with you on the part about the Jews thoughts of the coming Messiah. If our spirit goes to heaven after death does that mean that they can't have robes on like in Revalations. because they don't have a heaven suit yet. Because you do agree that we must await the ressuection for it to be transformed? I know that Jesus was eating fish after he resurrected to show that he was real and that heaven was real. That we are not ghost,But he was the firstfruits from the grave, the rest at his coming. I just wanna no if you think that the spirits are enjoying the tangable things of heaven right now since they themselves are not? Matt |
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7 | Is Hell Burning Today? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 84489 | ||
Mathew Understand Heaven is in the spirit realm, God is spirit and to worship Him we must do it in spirit and in truth John 4:24. When we die we go into the presence of the Lord as Paul tells us in 2 Cor 5:8, however we go as spirit beings and experience the limitation of not having our glorified bodies. What exactly those limitations are I do not know since the Bible does not spell them out. They must be fairly significant since we will desire the resurrection of our glorified bodies. I suspect the biggest limitation in the inability to past from the spirit realm to the physical and back. That is why I do not believe in ghost stories. Whatever the limitations I know we will rather be in that state than in our old state. I suspect we will be able to experience all the glories of God, and have a complete understanding of God, His love for us and His creation. But as I said before I can only speculate on what we can or can not do in this state since the Bible does not tell us more. You referred to Jesus, eating etc. understand He was the first resurrection and Jesus has received his glorified body. We can clearly understand that does not happen to us upon our death, we must wait for the Jesus' to call our bodies from the grave as seen in 1 Thes. 4. Matt what you have learned on this subject is a conclusion based on man's understanding of the subject not knowing or understanding the Jewish teaching or philosophy of death. This coupled with an improper exegesis of the some the scriptures that reference Sheol, Hades and death, have lead them and you to incorrect understanding of what happens upon our death. The teaching you hold while appearing logical ignores unanswered questions. First if Jesus’ parable in Luke 16 is as you say, the question must then be asked why would Jesus tell a story the completely agrees with Jewish understanding of death that is incorrect. By doing this couldn’t it be said Jesus was reinforcing a false teaching? I think we both know that can’t be true. If your teaching on death is correct that we do not go immediately into the presence of the Lord. Then Paul’s teaching in 2 Cor. 5 has to be wrong. Because using “proven and accepted” methods of exegesis the only conclusion that can be reached is that Paul is in fact talking of our spirit man’s situation upon death. Many people try to interpret the Bible for many reasons. The reason often determines the conclusion of the interpretation. In the interpretation process we must determine if the passage is to be taken literally, metaphorically or as an allegory. The method used to do this is called exegesis. The primary rule is to assume everything is literal and use the literal understanding to establish fact. When a literal translation is then found the conflicts with previous established facts it then must be investigated in a metaphorical or allegorical light to see if it will agree. If it can’t be reconcile then the previously established fact must be questioned, and process started over. By this process and over 4000 years of study of the Old Testament and 2000 years of study of the New Testament certain passages have been determined to be taken literally and others are understood to convey their message metaphorically or as an allegory. Our understanding of biblical truths are then built on these established foundations. What the teaching you hold to has done is violated those understandings and in some cases has taken metaphorical passages literally and literal passages metaphorically. I think this was done because and idea was developed and then scripture was needed to prove it. Rather than deciding what scripture said, scripture was used to prove an idea. My suggestion to you is to read the Bible for yourself looking for the truth, not looking to prove what you think is truth. EdB |
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