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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | First resurrection happens twice | Rev 20:5 | Beja | 239270 | ||
Ed.O. Know that I have no intention of belittling your views on this. Most of those I hold most dear in life would agree with your posts. My intentions are not at all to convince you of a post tribulation rapture. In order to do that we would have to begin with a very systematic review of relevant texts in order that I might try to persuade you. My single point with regards your original question can be stated in these two notions: 1.) To just answer your original question only, you will need somebody who first agrees with you on all other points of eschatology. 2.) Absent that, you will necessarily have to discuss all the other texts which you do not agree upon in order to explain how your are reading Rev 20. With a certainty you disagree with my post-trib view, but you amply illustrate the point I am trying to make. I'm not sure how well suited this venue would be for carefully discussing all the places where you and I would disagree. On this forum it is sometimes very hard to flesh out one thought before one of the people in the conversation rushes of to a point they would prefer to be discussing. The effect can sometimes be that rather get one idea across well we only skim many ideas poorly. However, I would not want you to think that I am playing with words. With regards to the apostle John attributing to Jesus the statement, "I will keep you from..." We need to think clearly. Hear is my thought process there. 1.) The assertion is that the phrase, "I will keep you from" the hour of trial necessarily means that they will be taken away from this hour of trial so that they will not have to face it. 2.) The only other place John uses this word, indeed the very phrase "keep them from" the evil one, he specifically states that what he does not mean is to take them away from it so that they don't have to endure it. In that context it can not possibly mean what you suggest it to mean in Rev. 3) Therefore it is error to say it 'must' mean that in Revelations. It could mean that, but it is no fancy playing with words to suggest that in Rev the phrase means what it clearly means in the gospel of John. I don't think that argument is playing with words. I leave you to decide whether the argument is valid. Again, I do not say this to persuade you of post-trib, I merely say this to clear myself of the notion of exegetical malpractice. When all has been weighed all I am saying is this: Your original question begs a lot of other questions. Your brother in Christ, Beja |
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2 | First resurrection happens twice | Rev 20:5 | Ed O. | 239281 | ||
Hi Beja, you say,"1.) The assertion is that the phrase, "I will keep you from" the hour of trial necessarily means that they will be taken away from this hour of trial so that they will not have to face it." ----Well said. What better place to be but in heaven rather than to face it. Ed O, | ||||||
3 | First resurrection happens twice | Rev 20:5 | Beja | 239285 | ||
Ed.O. You needed to read point 2 and 3. I was disproving number 1. The way you quoted me makes it sound like I was suggesting it. My logic was as follows. 1. Your Assertion:In Rev 20 phrase X must mean A. 2. My Counter Evidence: In John phrase X can not possibly mean A. 3. Therefore: Phrase X might not mean A in Rev 20. Statement 1 is false. In Christ, Beja |
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4 | Mystery Resurrection For Holy Ones | Rev 20:5 | Ed O. | 239286 | ||
Hi Beja, Please answer my one question which is: In Zech 14:5 How did the holy ones get to heaven so that they now return with Christ? Ed O. | ||||||
5 | Mystery Resurrection For Holy Ones | Rev 20:5 | Beja | 239287 | ||
Ed.O. When posting a new question mid thread to a specific person, the unwritten norm on the form is to still mark it as a note. It will still alert me via e-mail that I was replied to so that I will not miss the question, and that way a question not meant for the general forum will no clutter the question section. But no worries, as I said, that is an "unwritten" norm. With regards to your question...I will answer it but then I would like to bow out of the conversation. I will try to refrain leaving my post in such a way that challenges you to respond as that would be an ungracious way to ask to be excused. I never wanted to debate viewpoints but only to be helpful in guiding whatever further discussion might ensue apart from me. But to the question...Let me first state what difficulty you might be assuming the text gives my viewpoint and then I will give my answer to it. Let me quote the text for the sake of the many silent readers. "And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God willcome, and all the holy ones with him." The given is that these are saints. I assume we both accept this point. The problem presumably comes when it says that he will bring the holy ones "with" him. The assumption being that they are already with him. How can I therefore say that they were not previously gathered? Clearly this triumphant judgment return of Christ happens at the turning of the ages. Any so called tribulation happens before the return depicted in this verse and here we see the saints are with him here when he does. This is the problem you are suggesting, yes? Let me give you a matching statement from the New Testament which I believe explains this. Paul states that when the Lord returns he will "Bring with him those who have fallen asleep." He says this in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. So here we have a clear statement of whom Christ shall bring with him on his return. Those who have fallen asleep is a euphemism for those who have died in Christ. Second, and this is very much to the point, he is stating whom he will bring with him when he comes to rapture his church. So those whom Christ brings with him are not the raptured, they are the faithful saints through the ages who have died in Christ. Third, even the "bringing them with" is not what we would first expect for he goes on to explain that the "bringing them with" in specifically how it will play out will be Christ showing up, resurrecting the entire lot of them, and then he will call up those still alive. Now you and I would say, "Hey! but that isn't bringing them with him!" How can Paul say they are brouth "with him" and yet his very explanation of this phrase is that he ressurects them just before the rapture? But that is exactly the words that Paul uses for this. So I would argue that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 explain specifically who are brought with Christ, and this event happens AT the rapture. So we see the rapture happens AT the time of Christ's return with his holy ones and AT the resurrection. Which also is AT the same time as his judgment on unbelievers (2 Thess 1:5-10), which happens AT the time of the destruction of the current heavens and earth (2 Pe 3:7). In Christ, Beja |
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