Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The meaning of Rev.17:10 | Rev 17:10 | Morant61 | 181741 | ||
Greetings Shing! Here is what the Bible Knowledge Commentary says about this verse: ****** 17:9-11. The angel informed John, This calls for a mind with wisdom (cf. 13:18). The truth that is being presented here symbolically requires spiritual insight to be understood, and the difficulty of correct interpretation is illustrated by the various ways it has been interpreted in the history of the church. The angel informed John that the beast’s heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. Many ancient writers, such as Victorinus, who wrote one of the first commentaries on the Book of Revelation, identified the seven hills as Rome, often described as “the city of seven hills.” This identification has led to the conclusion this passage teaches that Rome will be the capital of the coming world empire. Originally Rome included seven small mountains along the Tiber River, and the hills were given the names Palatine, Aventine, Caelian, Equiline, Viminal, Quirimal, and Capitoline. Later, however, the city expanded to include the hill Janiculum and also a hill to the north called Pincian. While Rome is often referred to as having seven hills or mountains, different writers do not necessarily name the same seven mountains. A close study of the passage does not support the conclusion that this refers to the city of Rome. Seiss, for instance, offers extensive evidence that the reference is to rulers rather than to physical mountains (The Apocalypse, pp. 391-94). This is supported by the text which explains, They are also seven kings (lit., “the seven heads are seven kings”). If the mountains represent kings, then obviously they are not literal mountains and refer not to a literal Rome but to persons. This view is also supported by verse 10, Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. John was writing from his point of view in which five prominent kings of the Roman Empire had already come and gone, and one was then on the throne (probably Domitian, who caused the persecution which put John on the island of Patmos). The identity of the seventh king, the one to come after John’s time, is unknown. Verse 11 adds that the final world empire will be headed by an eighth king. . . . The beast who once was, and now is not. . . . belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. The eighth king is obviously identical to the final world ruler, the man who heads up the final world empire destroyed by Christ at His second coming. One possible explanation of the difference between the seventh and eighth beast is that the seventh beast itself is the Roman Empire marvelously revived in the end time, and the eighth beast is its final ruler. These verses show that in the end time, particularly during the first half of the last seven years, there will be an alliance between the Middle East ruler (the Antichrist) and the apostate world church of that time. This will come to a head, however, at the midpoint of the seven years, when that political power becomes worldwide. ***** I hope this helps! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Persons or World Powers? | Rev 17:10 | Brian#9 | 181754 | ||
Hello Tim Moran, On reading your post I decided to read my electronic copy of Seiss Apocalypse Rev 17:1-17, If I may quote a portion of it,"They are Greece, Persia, Babylon, Assyria, and Egypt; no more and no less. And these all were imperial powers like Rome. Here, then are six of these regal mountains; the seventh is not yet come. When it comes it is to endure but a short time. This implies that each of the others continues a log time; and so, again could not mean the dictators, decemvirs, and military tribunes of the early history of Rome, for some of them lasted but a year or two.Thus, then, by the clearest, most direct, and most natural signification of words of the record, we are brought to the identification of these seven mountain kings as the seven great world-powers, which stretch from the beginning of our present world to the end of it. Daniel makes the number less; but he started with his own times, and looked only down the stream. Here the account looks backward as well as forward. What is first in Daniel is the third here, and that which is the sixth here is the fourth in Daniel. Only the commencing point is there any difference. The visions of Daniel and the visions of John are from the same Divine Mind, and they perfectly harmonize, only that the latest are the amplest. By these seven great powers then, filling up the whole interval of this world's history, this great Harlot is said to be carried." Sir the above quote identifies the seven as great world powers. How did you come to the conclusion that they are persons? Is there another source that you have that supports that the seven are persons? In HIS Hand, Brian |
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3 | Persons or World Powers? | Rev 17:10 | kalos | 181772 | ||
'I think seven kings is seven kings just as John said.' One could just as easily ask, 'Brian, how did you come to the conclusion that when John says "they are seven kings" (Rev. 17:10), "kings" does not mean persons?' 'It appears strange for John to explain, but not really explain what he means. Seven heads equal seven mountains, which equal seven kings. Taking Scripture at face value, John has defined the seven heads. However, most interpreters want to add another step to John’s equation. 'Seven heads equal seven mountains equal seven kings equal seven kingdoms. Their basis for this conclusion is based on Daniel’s interchangeable reference to kings and kingdoms. I think seven kings is seven kings just as John said.' Source: (www.revelationcommentary.org/17_chapter.html) Grace to you, John |
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4 | If persons then identify. | Rev 17:10 | Brian#9 | 181814 | ||
Hello Kalos, Thank you for the reply and another resource (revelation commentary.org/17-chapter.html ) My statement was that Seiss in Seiss Apocalypse called them world powers not persons that is all. Looking for the best explanation that matches the Bible. If they are persons then the six ought to be easy to identify. Only the seventh still not known. Who do you say they are, that matches the Bible? Or more information like that above. Again thank you, Brian |
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5 | If persons then identify. | Rev 17:10 | kalos | 181831 | ||
Brian, Thank you for your reply. I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. If you mean what are the names of the kings, my answer is I don't know and I'm not interested in knowing. Grace and peace, John |
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6 | How do you come to your conclusion of pe | Rev 17:10 | Brian#9 | 181859 | ||
Hello Kalos, My question is that if you believe the kings in Rev. 17:10 are people, how do you come to that conclusion? And with that information I see no reason why six of the kings could not be identified. Where as Seiss brings forth many points to uphold his position that the kings are world powers and could not be persons. As he has identified the six in the verse, then the seventh should be the one world government of the end times. As Seiss (Seiss Apocalypse ) pointed out the six world powers (Rome in John's day, Greece, Persia, Babylon, Assyria, and Egypt ), have all carried the idolatrous Harlot Woman, and so will the seventh. This position of the kings being world powers also harmonizes Daniel's visions and John's visions. Understandable due to the fact that both have the same Source. Trying to fully understand all the verses of the Bible is trying to understand the Mind of Christ. As much as this pea-brain human can understand, and yes I want to know. Still searching the Mind of Christ, Brian |
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7 | How do you come to your conclusion of pe | Rev 17:10 | mark d seyler | 181862 | ||
Hi Brian, I am the same as you in that I also wish to know and understand all that can be known and understood about the Bible. While I think that it is possible John was speaking in the same manner as Daniel in personifying kingdoms, the fact remains that while Daniel was using symbolic language that could be applied however the originator of the symbol (God) intended, and then explained these symbols using words of both individuals and corporate groups (kings and kingdoms), John used plain language identifying kings, without additional explanation that these kings were actually kingdoms. I would need to see the textual basis for interpreting "kings" as "kingdoms" before becoming dogmatic about it. The fact that someone can put together a list of empires that seems to fit the bill does not carry the same weight as Inspired Scripture, nor does another's inability to compile such a list of persons. If it's kingdoms, it kingdoms, no matter whether or not someone can, correctly or incorrectly, name 7 kingdoms, and by the same token, if its kings, its kings, regardless of someone's ability or inability to name them. Not to mention, each of those empires Seiss names had a ruler who displayed particular characteristics that could qualify them for this dubious honor. Nero, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Hamon (by virtue of the signet), Pharoah at the time of the exodus, Nimrod (I'm not as familiar with the Assyrian rulers, although given their extreme brutality, I'm certain it came from somewhere!) One that was not yet at John's time, that would continue for a short time may have been Hitler. These rulers displayed insane animosity towards the people of God, as well as extreme pride, again to the point of insanity. Personally, I think these 7, and the eighth, are specific rulers with a particular agenda against God's people. Love in Christ, Mark |
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8 | How do you come to your conclusion of pe | Rev 17:10 | Brian#9 | 181908 | ||
Hello Sir; It has been awhile,may this year that is one closer to our Lord's return be a blessed one for you and yours. Do you have a copy of Seiss's Apocalypse of Jesus Christ? It is interesting reading. I am aware that others have different views. I just would like to read their sources for their opinions too. I would find it hard to elevate Hitler to the level of Nimrod or any of the others. Do you have any resources on Rev. 17:9-11? I am still studying, no opinion yet. In His Hand, Brian |
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9 | How do you come to your conclusion of pe | Rev 17:10 | mark d seyler | 182024 | ||
Hi Brian, I do not have a copy of Seiss, although I am familiar with the teaching of empires. I would be interested in knowing what Bible passages he cites to support this teaching that these are kingdoms and not kings themselves. I do not know who these kings or kingdoms, if that is correct, are. I have read a number of commentators, and heard many teachers on the subject, although there isn't one who stands out in my mind as having a special insight on this. For me, there just doesn't seem to be any additional information in the Bible that directs us to read "kings" as "kingdoms", therefore, I think John wrote of specific rulers, and I only have my guess of who they were. The final one should be clear for those who will be here to see him. Sorry I couldn't help more than this. Love in Christ, Mark |
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10 | How do you come to your conclusion of pe | Rev 17:10 | Brian#9 | 182072 | ||
Evening Sir, I am still in the middle of this :-) :-) :-). What started me on this was the wording of Rev. 17:11, " even he is the eighth, and is of the seven," as well as Rev. 17:18. Still looking for resources. Yes you are correct that the final one should be clear to those who will be here to see him, But they will not see him as you or I would have ( 2 Thessalonians 2::8-12 ). Please check your e-mail sir. In His Hand, Brian |
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