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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Will we be here once anti-Christ appears | 1 John 2:18 | Emmaus | 86264 | ||
Scribe, I must give you credit for not remaining vague in time frames and not buying into the Constantine myth of apostasy. If your analysis is correct, then Christ's promise that the He would be with the Church always and that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church to all truth was patently false. It would also assume that the St. Paul's admonitions to pass on what he had taught both in writing and by word of mouth to carefully chosen men by the laying on of hands was bad advice that bore bad fruit. Even Ignatius was only two men removed from St. Peter as bishop of Antioch. Is it likely such a basic teaching as the day of worship of the meaning of the Lord's Day would be so quickly lost and without a dispute by the faithful who had for three generations been living the christian way? And even the New Testament itself makes it clear that the various local churches were in rather close communication with one another, as evidenced by Acts and the Epistles of St. Paul. I believe it is the writings of the Fathers that gives us the context necessary to understand how the early Church understood certain passages of Scripture, in particular Revelation 1:10, which, the majority opinion dates to about 95 A.D. only 5 to 15 years prior to the date you give for Ignatius. I also think your translation of Rev 1:10 is very interesting and a good example of polyvalent meanings that can be taken in interpreting the Scripture on more than one level. Here are a few passages on this subject of Sunday worship. "The Didache "But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]). The Letter of Barnabas "We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]). Ignatius of Antioch "[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]). Justin Martyr "[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]). "But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]). Tertullian "[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]). The Didascalia "The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation, because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]). excerpts from a full article on the subject at: http://www.catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp Emmaus |
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2 | Will we be here once anti-Christ appears | 1 John 2:18 | Scribe | 86273 | ||
Part 1 of 3 I think there are many scholars which would say that The Didache date of A.D. 70 is not likely. Excluding that as the propre date of The Didache, and reading through Ingatious we will find many things that we (most of us protestant evangelicals) would think differently about, not saying it is false teaching but just a slightly different take on things than we might have when we read the same scriptures. Ignatius being closer to the original author (in this case John) does not convince of taking Ignatious words as infallible anymore than you would take mine or I yours. We consider only the scriptures the inspired Word of God and therefore are willing to accept as very possible that Ignatius could have made the same mistake others might make today when reading "the Lord's Day" and just assumed Sunday was meant. But I cannot proove that and I understand your argument as a very good one that such references to "The Lord's Day as Sunday in the early writers is strong evidence that that is what John meant. However I believe that God did indeed watch over the Word but not the words of Ignatius, so that If all I had was a bible and no Ignatius or any other early writer, would I come to this conclusion that it meant Sunday or would I have strong evidence from other scriptures that it meant the Day of the Lord? I wish I was scholar enough to take credit for the post below but it is the work of Joseph A. Siess as I mentioned before in a previous post. With this also agrees the statement of John as to the circumstances under which he came to the knowledge of the things which he narrates. He says he "was in Spirit in the Lord's day," in which he beheld what he afterward wrote. What is meant by this "Lord's day"? Some answer, Sunday, the first day of the week; but I am not satisfied with this explanation. Sunday belongs indeed to the Lord, but the Scriptures nowhere call it "the Lord's day." None of the Christian writings for 100 years after Christ ever call it "the Lord's day." But there is a "Day of the Lord" largely treated of by prophets, apostles, and fathers, the meaning of which is abundantly clear and settled. It is that day in which, Isaiah says, people shall hide in the rocks for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty; the day which Joel describes as the day of destruction from the Almighty, when the Lord shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake; the day to which the closing chapter of Malachi refers as the day that shall burn as an oven, and in which the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in his wings; the day which Paul proclaimed from Mars' Hill as that in which God will judge the world, concerning which he so earnestly exhorted the Thessalonians, and which was not to come until after a great apostasy from the faith, and the ripening of the wicked for destruction; the day in the which, Peter says, the heavens shall be changed, the elements melt, the earth burn, and all present orders of things give way to new heavens and a new earth; even "the day for which all other days were made." And on that day I understand John to say, he in some sense was. In the mysteries of prophetic rapport, which the Scriptures describe as "in Spirit," and which Paul declared inexplicable, he was caught out of himself, and out of his proper place and time, and stationed amid the stupendous scenes of the great day of God, and made to see the actors in them, and to look upon them transpiring before his eyes, that he might write what he saw, and give it to the churches. (continued on next post) |
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